AAM

Greetings Andrew - 

Nice forum arrangement you have here. Do you still have your other "insidetheweb" forum? Regarding the Sabbath/Sunday issue, I suspect that there would be a greater chance that the earth would change it's course and the sun would be found to rise in the west and set in the east before either of us would ever come to an agreement on the Biblical stance of the seventh day Sabbath. In our very lengthy and often very passionate and firey debate on Nicholas's board we've managed to draw in other topics that could very well be additional threads leading us to digress from my initial challenge, i.e., proving sunday observance as a direct command of Almighty God. In the future, I would like to discuss the 
historical aspects that we glanced over such as the Waldensians/Albigensians, early church fathers, the desire to restore the sunday blue laws, even Hitler's relationship with catholicism. 

But suffice it to say with regard to the Sabbath question, it is indeed a historical fact that the Roman Catholic Church has admitted that they changed the Sabbath to Sunday. The Lord's day mentioned in Revelation is not discussing Sunday. 

The bottom line is that a.) God set apart and sanctified the seventh day Sabbath at creation. b.) He incorporated it when He codified the moral law of the Decalogue when He uttered His law audibly and then wrote it on the stone tablets with His own finger. c.) The Hebrews did not choose, opt, or select the seventh day Sabbath. God did. d.) Also, God did not leave His church with the authority to choose, opt, or select another day to replace His Sabbath. e.)Jesus kept the Sabbath - not as a Jew, but as the Head of His church. He taught us how the Sabbath should be kept, not how it should be changed. f.) Jesus warned His followers that they should pray that their flight from the Roman armies that were to besiege Jerusalem would not take place on the Sabbath. 

He wasn't talking about sunday here. Jesus had plenty of opportunity to have made such a change in His commandments before He sealed the New Testament with His blood and have it recorded in the gospels. Jesus made no such utterance. Christ is our example. He kept the Sabbath and so should all of His followers. God only gives His people two choices when it comes to truth - to obey or disobey - each choice with it's corresponding consequences. 

Personally, I don't care if sunday is the Sabbath. IF the change was made by God, that is. This, you have failed to do, Andrew. Jesus did not give His church the authority to select any other day for the Sabbath than the day that He already selected at creation. The Roman Catholic Church selected sunday. Now, I ask you. Who's authority should christians acknowledge? Christ's, or the Catholic Church's? 

That's the question. That's the issue. Unless it can be proved by Scripture that God changed the fouth commandment to read "the first day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God...", then it must be acknowledged that He did no such thing and that all of God's children are bound by the fourth commandment to observe the seventh day Sabbath just as we are bound to live in harmony with the other nine commandments. This is where we stand, Andrew. On the one side, there's myself who contends for the authority of Scripture, and on the other side is yourself who contends for the authority of the Catholic Church. 

If you were to submit yourself to Scriptural authority, then you would find yourself observing the Sabbath of God's command, the seventh day. If I was to submit myself to the authority of the Catholic Church, then I would find myself observing the sabbath on sunday - on the say-so of the Catholic Church. 

That's the Catholic challenge to all protestants. The protestants claim the Bible as their only source and authority of faith and practice, yet they choose to keep sunday, thus acknowledging the authority of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was quick to see their hypocrasy in this matter and that's precisely the issue that turned the tide in favor of tradition at the Council of Trent. I wholeheartedly agree with the Catholic Church in this regard. It's that simple. It's a question of whose authority the christian will submit to. God's or the Catholic Church's. 

Peace! 

AAM RESPONSE: 

Dear Lou, 

You and Nicholas had previously argued for a late date of institution for the Catholic Church. Claiming that the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday, as you state, would contradict your prior claim. However, the latter assertion holds some merit in that the Christian leaders who chose Sunday as their celebration of the seventh (or sometimes called the eighth day) were indeed the proto-leaders of what would come to be known as the Catholic Church. Documentation from a time congruent with that of Revelation and following is sufficient evidence that the mention of the "Lord's day" in Revelation does indeed refer to Sunday. While extra-biblical works would not be considered canonical Scripture, just as in Old Testament studies, they aid us in understanding the terminology and mind of the inspired authors. The term is exclusively used by the end of the first century for the Sunday observance of Christ's resurrection. All the evidence points in this direction. You can add nothing further to the debate because you reject all such documentation from the first century and following. 

Yes, God set up the seventh day Sabbath, he codified it in divine positive law, but the Hebraic leadership were the ones who selected Saturday as the ceremonial day to commemorate it. Can you find a Scripture where God says it must be celebrated on Saturday and no other day? No. Just as the Hebrews had such authority in regard to the chronicle of creation; so too did the leadership of the new People of God in regard to the testament of re-creation and restoration in Christ. Prior to the institution of the Church, Christ, who was master of the Sabbath, respected the dictates of his Jewish inheritance. 

You post becomes a bit convoluted when you say, " Personally, I don't care if Sunday is the Sabbath. IF the change was made by God, that is." I will not try to unravel it. You assert that the Sabbath was not changed by God but by a Catholic Church that had no authority to do so. Obviously, as I have said countless times before, if you reject the authority of any church, then nothing other than a rendering of Scripture as you personally interpret it will suffice. Catholics see no contradiction between such matters of faith in the Church and divine providence. We believe that Christ gave something of his authority and his role of shepherd to men. 

You state: " If you were to submit yourself to Scriptural authority, then you would find yourself observing the Sabbath of God's command, the seventh day. If I was to submit myself to the authority of the Catholic Church, then I would find myself observing the Sabbath on Sunday - on the say-so of the Catholic Church." Actually, the situation is not quite so simplistic. There are many non-Catholic Christians who believe that they submit themselves wholly to Scripture and yet their reading of Revelation and the ancient practice of the faith informs their biblical interpretation. They would contend, even if wrongly, that the first Christians (not Catholics as such) felt compelled by the kerygma of Christ to celebrate a distinct celebration from the Jews in the Lord's day or Sunday. What you are contending does not appear to be sola-scriptura (as if such an animal actually exists) but a particularly narrow and syncretistic way of interpreting Holy Writ. True Scripture scholars of any denomination might still find themselves stressing the importance of the Sunday Observance. On the other hand, while the Sunday Observance is important and legislated under a precept of the Church, the Holy Father has permitted by way of indult the Saturday celebration of the Sacred Liturgy. Indeed, as I mentioned and you ignored, there are many in the international Neocatechumenal Way who celebrate the weekend Mass with accentuated Jewish elements and only on Saturday evening. Millions of Catholics come together to worship God as early as 4:00 or 5:00 PM on Saturdays. The Church today seeks a unity in the midst of legitimate diversity. 

I hope you have had a chance to read the posts to which you were unable to respond because of the deletions at Nicholas' message board of hate and deception. 

C. A. @ Andrew Apologetic Ministries 

Andrew, 

As I've stated in the past, the polarizing issues of the Sabbath/Sunday controversy center in the realm of authority. 

Scriptural Authority or Papal Authority? 

I'll also reiterate the fact that sunday observance came into christendom through a very gradual process. This, in and of itself is proof of its falsity. 

You stick to your belief that the seventh day Sabbath was selected by the Hebrews, yet you cannot produce Scripture to back up such a claim. 

You ignore the fact that the seventh day was set apart and made holy by a specific act of God Almighty at creation. He placed it in the bosom of His Ten 
Commandments which He proclaimed audibly from Sinai and wrote on stone tablets with His own finger. 

You ignore the fact that the Sabbath was made by Christ of which all things that were made were made by Him, 2300 years before a Hebrew existed. 

You ignore the fact that at creation, of which the Sabbath day is a memorial of, was made prior to the entrance of sin into this world. Therefore it was not designed as a ceremonial law of types and shadows. 

You ignore the fact that the seventh day Sabbath is the Lord's Day that's discussed in Revelation. Look anywhere in the New Testament and you will notice that all references to the day that we now call sunday was always refered to "the first day of the week." The day that we now call Saturday was always called the Sabbath. Now, if Sunday really was the Lord's Day, then the New Testament would have tied the "first day" to the "Lord's Day". This, you do not have. 

You are relying on the writings of so-called church fathers who were in the process of apostasy. That's where Sunday observance was born from - apostasy. You ignore the fact that Jesus, for His entire 33 year stay in this world, kept every single Sabbath. He kept it for over 1700 times during His stay on earth. He set us an example of Sabbath-keeping, not Sunday-keeping. For Sunday observance to be valid, it is necessary that the Lord Himself, by His own authority, for which He proclaims is in all of heaven and earth, would make the change and would TELL US! 

The church fathers are not a sufficient guide in matters of faith. They are 
mere mortal, sinful, finite, erring flesh. Anyone who places their trust in flesh is a fool. 

You mention the protestants that claim to base their faith on the Bible but 
through the writings of church fathers, etc., they accept the sunday sabbath. 
Those protestant leadership are deceived hypocrates. In my opinion, this is the 
main reason why mainline protestantism is dead and for all intents and purposes, they are catholic. They are on the road back to Rome. If they were true protestants and were protesting the Papal apostasy, this would never be 
happening. 

A true protestant bases his/her rule of faith, doctrine, and practice SOLEY on the Bible. 

The early writings of church fathers may serve to make some interesting reading, however, they are not the final authority on doctrine. You 
know Andrew, there are some Catholics out there that question these things. And those that are sincerely seeking to do the will of God will not be pleased with the Catholic position on this issue. Cathy might be one of them. I saw her questions. And I saw the false answer that was given to her. I hope she's not satisfied with that answer and that she continues to question it in her mind and goes to the Word of God for the answer instead of a priest. 

In any case, neither the Catholic church, nor those that name themselves protestant but are not, can defend the sunday sabbath from Scripture. Both groups choose tradition over and above the plain Word of God. And this is indeed most unfortunate. 

Peace! 

AAM'S RESPONSE: 

Dear Lou, 

Yes, the issue of authority in the Church is indeed quite crucial to the Saturday/Sunday Sabbath debate. You deny ecclesiastical authority altogether, not just within this particular discussion. A Catholic theologian cannot start from such a position since it conflicts with the very notion of his discipline as an investigation of faith within the framework of Church kerygma. Rather, you explicit position is as follows: 

> God expressly gave us the Sabbath "ceremonial" or observance day; 
> There is no mention of a change from Saturday to Sunday in the bible; 
> Even if Christians did worship on Sunday, it does not matter. 

As I have explained already, God commanded "the Sabbath", not "the Saturday" which was determined by Jewish religious authorities. Next, while there is no direct divine positive command for Christians to worship on Sunday, the reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation is properly understood as Sunday and such is verified by early extrabiblical documentation. Lastly, the practice of the first Christian communities does very much matter. The witness of the apostolic and patristic churches rests in close proximity to the historical Christ-event. Their testimony verifies the claims and practices of Catholic Christianity. The Church did have the lawful authority to establish Sunday as the Christian day of particular observance. It reflected the great mystery of Christ's victory over death and his extension of new life to the Church, a people with every cause for hope. 

Actually, the opposition between Scripture and Papal authority is false. There is no such thing as sola-scriptura, another point I have argued again and again. Everyone, no matter whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, or even SDA, speaks from a particular background and faith tradition. Each of us even accepts various religious authorities as guides, no matter whether it is the Pope, Martin Luther, our immediate pastor, parents, or a friend. This authority or authorities might not even be overtly admitted or recognized. But it is there all the same. We do not come to God alone. Along with this fact, if there is no absolute authority than Scripture can be twisted to fit our own peculiar worldview and biases. Every translator and every reader is on some level an interpreter. The Magisterium of Catholicism insures that our rendering of Scriptural truth is faithful to the original text and to the faith of the living Church of Jesus Christ. 

Your contention that the "gradual" transition to the Sunday Observance is proof of its falsity is itself a nonsensical statement. The Church lives in human history, something by definition that is fluid and changing. While there are permanent absolutes, the early Church did not see the Saturday "ceremonial" day as one set in concrete. The Decalogue can just as well be fulfilled by the Christian in Sunday Observance. 

Returning to your sola-scriptura stance, you impugn the Sunday Observance because I have cited no verse that gives the acta of the ancient Hebrews in selecting Saturday as the day to commemorate the Sabbath. However, you have failed to cite any Scripture where God announces once and for all that the Sabbath must be on Saturday. The numbering system would follow after such a selection and not before. 

Of course, you are probably one of those fundamentalists who think that primative man kept such calendars in our prehistory. 

I ignore nothing. Yes, God gave us the Sabbath day; however, the Christians of the first and second century saw Sunday as a lawful celebration of a new creation in Jesus Christ. 

Christ is a member of the triune godhead, so yes; he was there in the beginning and when the law was given to men. As for your dating, I am willing to admit that God's time might not be our own and so our prehistory can be dated not simply in thousands but in millions of years. However, that would be another debate and we should finish this one first. 

I will not get into a cosmological debate with you over what God "resting" actually means. You are quite misled in thinking that the Saturday Observance of the Sabbath necessarily precedes the primordial sin. All the Scriptural text says is that "God blessed the seventh day and made it holy." The day is not identified. Indeed, God's days are most probably not our days. It was not until the fourth so-called day that God makes the sun and moon. The first story of creation states: " . . . and let them be the signs and for seasons and for days and years" (Genesis 1:14). Scripture scholars tell us that the Semetic author used the literary structure of seven days to impress upon his listeners the sacredness of the seventh day Sabbath rest in Israelite belief and practice. Remember that the chronicle was not written "on the spot" but was a theological reflection by divinely inspired authors upon their pre-history and the goodness of their God. 

Again you deny the legitimacy of writings of the same basic time period to shed light on the Lord's day mentioned in Revelation. The term did not refer to Saturday. You can contend that John was deluded, but that is the most you can do. Sunday was understood by many titles in the early Church. I have not denied that it was considered the first day of the week. Indeed, that is our understanding of it today. However, early Christians also termed it "the eighth day" refering to Christ's resurrection and the Eucharist as time outside time. The mystery of the Lord was made present to believers. It was also the new "seventh day" in the sense that Christians adopted it as their day of commemorance in respect to the divine mandate and its understanding in the light of Christ. The Church did not end with the Acts of the Apostles and the Book of Revelation. What you glimpse in the last book continued in the Church in the witness of the ancient fathers and in the faith as lived today. 

There you have it. The testimony of the fathers, even from the first century, is nothing but grass in your mind, good only for the fire. Thus, the Church disappeared almost as soon as Christ instituted it-- no I do not think so. As for Christ's personal witness, Jesus was a Jew. Let me say that again, Jesus was a Jew. He was a good and faithful Jew. He kept the commandments and the Sabbath. Since the rationale for the change in gravity from Saturday to Sunday observance was his own resurrection, it would not have made any sense for him to change the practice beforehand. Initially, all the Christians were Jews. They went to the synagogue on Saturday and gathered in personal homes for the Lord's Supper on Sunday. When they were expelled from the synagogues and more Gentiles entered the new religion, the Sunday Observance took precidence. 

You say if such is the case, then Jesus would tell us. Well, he does tell us. But, you stopped hearing the Lord clearly when you made yourself an enemy of his Church. 

Were the Church Fathers mere men of flesh and blood? Yes. But, what they taught was confirmed by the living Church and so is held up by more than the things of mortality. You say that anyone who places his trust "in flesh" is a fool, and yet, is that not precisely what we are called to be, fools for Christ? Did the bruised and battered flesh of Christ not redeem us? Were we not given a certain hope in the resurrected and glorified flesh of Christ? Do we not hold in high esteem the inspired Scriptures, penned by men but also authored by God? You see conflicts where I see unity. You see opportunities for assault where I see confirmation of ancient truths. I would surrender my life for your right to keep the Saturday Observance of the Sabbath, and yet you and Nicholas malign the rights of men and women like myself to keep Sunday. There is a great gulf between us made up of more than ideas. There is a different spirit. 

It is interesting that the worst insult you can throw at most Protestant churches is that they are really "Catholic" or "on the road back to Rome". All that you have said and written, particularly the slurs, is proof that you hate the Pope and all for which he stands. Indeed, the meritorious actions of Pope John Paul II and his supporters, like the late Mother Teresa, are slanted over and over again for rebuke and mockery. There is no satisfying your anger and need to win against the so-called "Whore of Babylon". You and Nicholas deserve each other. The apostasy is yours. 

You write, "a true Protestant bases his/her rule of faith, doctrine, and practice SOLY on the Bible." It has never been done and cannot be done. The bible can only be understood within the religious structures from which they emerged. That is why Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish exegetes work together in unraveling the meaning of God's Word. Taken outside of the context of a faith community, the Scriptures are orphaned. The Church gathered the books. Members of the Church inspired by God composed the New Testament. This being the case, your argument falls to pieces. 

As for Cathy, the other one that is, I am not privy to her inmost thoughts regarding her satisfaction of various answers to her questions. In any case, if we are talking about the same post, the respondent was a religious brother, and not a priest. The fact that you did not pick this up is but another indicator of your true ignorance regarding things Catholic. Sometimes it is hard to believe that you were a former Catholic. As for Catholics questioning things, I am afraid the real problem is a religious malaise. They are increasingly unable to even come up with the proper questions. Many Catholics dissent, not for thoughtful or educated reasons, but for uninformed and selfish ones. Catholics do not leave the Church much over issues like Saturday or Sunday Sabbath. They abandon the Church because the tug of the world and its pleasures is such a terrible seduction. Instead of divine love, they look for love in all the wrong places-- in the bed of another person's spouse-- in contraceptive sex free from the responsibility that God gave it-- in sexual communion with one in whom a common gender makes such an attempt frustrated and fraudulent-- in abortion where self love masquerades as freedom and results in the murder of human beings. 

It upsets you that I do not argue exclusively from Scripture; but, as I have said repeatedly, such would be a violation in itself of Catholic hermeutics. We have had many debates, and I have not wanted them to disappear with the given limitations of message boards. Just as Nicholas saves your posts and responses, I have saved a few of mine. 

It is a poor but modest attempt, but you are welcome to visit my website at: 

www.apologetics.scriptmania.com 

AAM

These are the facts. 

1.)God set apart the seventh day as the Sabbath at creation. He rested from all His works. 
2.)The Sabbath is not a ceremonial ordinance. God placed it right in the heart of His Ten Commandment moral law. 
3.)The Sabbath was established at creation, over 2300 years prior to the existence of a Jew. 
Thus it is not the "Jewish Sabbath." 
4.)The Sabbath was in force prior to it's codification at Sinai. The opening word of the command is "Remember". 
5.)The Sabbath was created, chosen, and instituted by Almighty God. It was not given to Israel as a choice to select their sabbath. 
6.)Jesus Christ kept the Sabbath. Not as a Jew, but as Lord of the Sabbath. 
7.)Jesus did NOT make a change in His Sabbath command. He NEVER transferred it's solemnity to sunday. 
8.)He warned His followers to pray that their flight from the Roman armies would NOT occur on the Sabbath day - showing the Sabbath's binding force and also showing not the slightest intention on the part of Christ to change it to sunday. 
9.)The apostles kept the seventh day Sabbath. The Sabbath was never an issue or a point of controversy in the apostolic church. 
10.)The Lord's Day referred to by John in the book of Revelation is the Sabbath day of which Jesus Himself proclaimed that He was Lord of. The christian church NEVER was led to abrogate the seventh day Sabbath in exchange for the SUNday. NEVER. 
11.)The post-apostolic writings of early church fathers disclosed the workings of apostasy. Many of these writings are forged fabrications of the Catholic Church. 
12.)The authority that you acknowledge is a usurped authority of the post-apostolic apostasy. What you do is illegal from the standpoint of God. 
13.)You place your man-made traditions over and above the Word of God. Whether you realize it or not, whether you like it or not, you set yourself up in direct opposition to Almighty God. There's no two ways about it. YOU ARE WRONG, DEAD WRONG. 
14.)You deny the ALL-SUFFICIENCY of the Scriptures, thus denying the Lord who inspired the Scriptures. 

You write volumes on this issue approaching the magnitude of "War and Peace", yet you prove nothing. The Scriptures have one simple commandment: "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy; six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God...." 

This truth you cannot overthrow. You can type out your catholic philosophies until you wear out your keyboard, but it will never match up to a "thus saith the Lord". And unless you're willing to follow that, you're following nothing. Strong words? Perhaps. But true nonetheless. It's all about authority here. God's, or the Catholic Church's. God wins. Hands down! 

Peace!

C.A. @ AAM 

H.C. @ AAM 

C.A. @ AAM

Jews would certainly take exception to your antisemitism. The Sabbath is given to them in a most particular way. The Ten Commandments made keeping the Sabbath a requirement of their faith and fidelity. The only reason we have the narrative in Genesis is because of their retrospective reflection upon the Sabbath. Just as you minimize the authority of the Church, you would trivilize Jewish authority, too. 

Jewish biblical authorities would tell you themselves that the "seventh day" reference in Genesis 2:3 is not a literal calendar reality. It is a theological construct since God's time is not our time. It reflects the priestly style of authorship prevalent around 500 BC. It ascribes to God the observance of an obligation appreciated by believers at a much later date. Its revelation to Moses (around 1250 BC) was probably the culmination of many taboos, particularly the making of fires, and was already practiced outside the Hebrew people. There was a natural need for a periodic rest from toil. Considering a day of rest as a matter of natural law, the word "remember" makes quite good sense. How often, particularly today, do we get so busy or self-preoccupied that we forget to give God his due or even to seek the rest that restores both body and soul? We remember that he is God and we are his privileged creatures, raised to the level of sons and daughters. 

The assertion that the seventh day Sabbath was given prestine and fully explained to the Hebrew people as Saturday is not substantiated by either Scriptural or historical studies. 

Jesus was indeed the Lord of the Sabbath. But as a Jew, he kept, for the most part, the Jewish ceremonial day and the accopanying traditions during his mortal lifetime. 

As I have said before, Jesus could hardly have been expected to transfer the ceremonial Sabbath day observance prior to his passion, death, and resurrection. It is in light of his victory over death and the proclamation to the nations that the shift occurs. This is Scriptural evidence of this move, not only in Revelation, but also in Paul who preached to the pagan Gentiles. Christians were not bound by Jewish practices, except when they reflected the natural order of things (Acts 15:28-29). St. Paul declared believers in Christ to be excused from the Saturday observance in Colossians 2:16-17 and leaves the matter to local Christian (Catholic) authorities or to the individual in Romans 14:5-6. The mystery of the resurrection and the desire to baptize or convert the pagan festival to a Christian feast day were very much the strategy of the early Christians. 

Colossians 2:16-17: "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." 

Romans 14:5-6: "One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord." 

J.A. @ AAM

Actually, as St. Paul's remarks bear out, there was tension over the keeping of the Sabbath and he sides with those in the apostolic community who preferred freedom in its designation. 

C.A. @ AAM

J.A. & C.A. @ AAM 

J.A. @ AAM

You see the teachings and actions of the Church as man-made traditions juxtaposed against God's ways and laws. However, one compliments the other. Further, many of the traditions of the Church are both the expressions of believers and very much befitting the will of God. You see division where I discern unity. You may disagree with some of my views, but my faith is not dead wrong. You have no right or qualification to judge it anyway. Faith as a Catholic in Jesus is not "dead" wrong, but is an overture to salvation and eternal life. 

The most I know about your faith is that it defines itself in opposition to all things Catholic. 

If the Scriptures were all sufficient, they would not require collation or translation. The Lord who inspired men in their composition continues to guide the Church in their use and understanding. 

C.A. @ AAM

Your views are not one and the same with God's. God speaks to us in Scripture, and through the living tradition and authority of his bride, the Church. While Catholics today utilize Scripture more than you contend, I can criticize you just as seriously for failing to appreciate the background of tradition and the power of the keys given the Church. 

J.A. @ AAM

Peace!

Peace!

Psalma 89:34 - "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." 

Of course, you refuse the accept the authority of Scripture, so the above passage would have no meaning to you. Oh well! 

Peace! 

Now, to the Sabbath. Again, Cathy, you proven nothing. Nothing at all. You cannot produce one iota of Scripture in which God allowed the Jews to select their Sabbath. You cannot produce one iota of Scripture in which God allowed the christians to select their Sabbath. You see, Cathy. It's not THEIR Sabbath. It's the Sabbath of the LORD. The texts that you cite in Colossians and Romans you have not the slightest understanding of - for if you did, you wouldn't cite them as proof texts for your false claims. 

The text in Colossians does not say that the Sabbath is sunday. The context is in not passing judgement. And the sabbath days that are shadows are not THE SABBATH of the Lord, but the ceremonial, yearly sabbath feasts. Go back to Leviticus - maybe you'll learn something. The text in Romans is not discussing the Sabbath. Read the entire context. The context discusses those that are weak in the faith. These are Gentile converts here and the Sabbath is not under discussion. 

The New Testament never gives license to christians to tamper with the commandments of God and select a sabbath. Easily proven. 

Now, your turn. Prove by Scripture that God allowed the Jews to select their sabbath. Good Luck! 

Peace!

Repent and Accept Jesus Christ has your personal Saviour and you will be saved..... 
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE..... 
 

Your assertion that I must use Scripture to prove that Scripture is not the ultimate authority might lead one into a circular argument. In any case, citations made in the past regarding Church authority and the value of tradition have already presented evidence for the Catholic position. You have never rendered an serious challenge. 

Peace! 

Your assertion that Memorial days cannot be changed is false. Abraham Lincoln and George Washington had their secular memorials truncated to PRESIDENT'S DAY. The post-Vatican II Church revised the memorials (moving, adding, and abrogating some) in the sanctoral canon of the liturgical year. As for birthdays, many large families celebrate them all on a single day. So, to answer your question, no, I am not kidding you. 

Psalm 89:34 is regarding God's fidelity to his covenant. It has nothing to do with the ceremonial day commemoration of the Sabbath. 

Despite your slur to the contrary, I do so accept the authority of Scripture, just not in the exaggerated and privatized way that you interpret it. 

Peace! 

AAM 

P.S. Regarding my name, as long as you are a gentleman, it matters little what you call me. After all, would not "a ROSE by any other name smell as sweet"? (Am I hinting at something on another message board?-- hehehe)

You prove my point. A Catholic defends the Church against your prejudice and she is an anti-Christian. A Catholic challenges you on anti-Semitism, and you echo the big lie about Church persecution and murder and collaboration with Hitler. You use against Catholics the very same propaganda that the Nazis focused upon Jews. While you suggest that Christians and Jews should steer clear of Catholicism, a Church you decry as the Whore of Babylon with the Pope as anti-Christ, the Jewish community (particularly Israel) considers relations with the Vatican to be dialogue with the most authentic and historical expression of Christianity. 

As for the Sabbath, your argument is a broken record with no where to go. There is no Scripture verse detailing explicitly Saturday as the Sabbath. Such was the designation given it by the Hebrew leadership. You denounce all extra-biblical evidence and discount Scriptures that show the shift to Sunday observance. 

Sorry Lou, I suspect that you are out of ammunition. You have nothing that is utterly convincing, just bigotry and hate, and these in endless supply. 

Peace! 

CA @ AAM

Peace!

Peace!

Actually, I am not wrong about memorial days being changed. God's days are not our days. The ceremonial celebration of the Sabbath on Saturday does not literally mean that was God's day of rest. We do not know the actually date for Christ's birth and yet most Western Christians celebrate it on December 25. The emphasis in the Eastern churches is later, on the Epiphany. The West and East often celebrate Easter on different dates. 

Sunday is the memorial selected by the early Catholic Christians to commemorate our new creation and life in Jesus Christ. Individual pseudo-SDA's might arrogantly assume the authority to ignore this for the Jewish Sabbath, but that does not mean that God did not authorize the move. Indeed, I have given Scriptures that show that the change did indeed happen. Your sloppy interpretation to the contrary proves nothing. 

The Church both stands over the Scriptures and is held accountable by them. As I have said countless times before, Catholics wrote the New Testament under divine inspiration, the Catholic Church preserved the Old Testament, and the Church assembled the compositions from oral tradition and her letters into the New Testament. The Church is the Mother of the bible. 

I cannot control whether or not the administrator of this site will ban you, but certainly you are adding nothing new or significant to this debate. You are free to hold your position but the Catholic stance is unscathed. 

Peace! 

C.A. @ AAM

Until the Reformation, you would be hard-put to find any so-called Christians who disavowed the authority of the Church. The notion that Scripture is the ONLY and FINAL authority is a Protestant aberration in the long history of authentic interpretation. In any case, you probably trust Scriptures assembled and translated by Catholics or by the Anglicans who also claim bishops, priests, and the Eucharist. The ones who gave you the bible probably all follow the Sunday Observance. 

You deny the Jews their right as a religious people and nation to interpret the revelation of God. A rabbi himself told me that the Sabbath is understood as properly their own and in terms similar to those I used. Your desire to fashion a Genesis vision and an Exodus free from Hebraic taint is indeed anti-Semitic. 

You slander Pope Pius XII and like the modern propagandists disavowal the many words of commendation from Jewish leaders over the real though secretive work of the Holy Father on behalf of God's first Chosen People. Yours is the BIG LIE so illustrative of the deceit practiced by the Nazis against those they hated and ridiculed. 

You ban yourself by your bad manners. If my strong words earn me banishment from this board as well, then so be it. You are everything I said you were-- a bigot who has even deceived himself! 

C.A. @ AAM