Catholism Denies Predestination 
  
The following is a quick debate regarding predestination and free will. 

Andrew responds:  

Predestination  

On several boards, I have some across numerous people who do not believe in free will and support this view by way of predestination. I was just curious how, as a catholic, we can answer these issues. Here's a post from another board that I simply couldn't answer, since I really don't know anything about the subject.... 

Poster writes: 

What would be the opposite of God "OFFERING" salvation? FORCING us to have salvation>>> 

..it's called Grace! Which means "the unmerited favor of God". Unmerited by any works including the work of coming, going, picking, asking, taking, accepting, selecting, seeking, or choosing! I.e, by absolutely "no merit" of our own at all! What God defines as Grace! 

Andrew responds: 

As I begin to read this post, I have to wonder if there is not a little tongue-in-cheek shenanigan going on?  There are people who are absolute determinists, but when they wear the Christian tag it makes things a bit peculiar.  The author is literally saying that some are FORCED to salvation.  The Calvinist opposite would be that some are pre-determined for hell, too.  Grace is the unmerited favor of God-- this is true.  However, to reject utterly any human participation, even passive acceptance, not only rejects free will but also makes the subject inconsequential.  There is some logic to the position, although the starting point (against the merit of any works) is seriously flawed.  Most Protestants, who reject the value of works, would nonetheless, allow for the personal acceptance or rejection of Christ's saving grace merited by the cross.  The Catholic view of works is not as far removed from this stance, as some would suggest.  The Catholic view of the incarnation sees the acts of our discipleship as an element of our faith profession in Christ, allowing the Lord to continue his saving works and ministry through us and his appointed ministers.  Apart from Christ, Catholics would contend there is no merit and no salvation.  The post here would assert that it does not matter what we do or think.  The Church and everyone else are totally out of the picture.  It is as if we have no say at all.  This seriously compromises the integrity of the human person, something God would not do.  Such determinism would also have to correspond to Adam in the garden.  While classical Christianity claims that the fall resulted from the disobedience of our first parents in the primordial garden, this post would have to insist that the fall was God's direct will.  This is ludicrous.  God is all good and never intends evil. 

Poster writes: 

>>>no free-will in the matter. What scripture supports this? >>> 

In a word, All! All scripture supports this! By contrast, there is absolutely no scripture in God's Word at all which says we must come to Christ by our own Free Will! In fact, the word FREE WILL is never found in scripture at all as it relates to man's ability to choose Christ or salvation. Not one single verse. Every verse says God must draw us, or we won't Come. Because the fact is, we are desperately wicked so that there is "NOT ONE" of us who would of his own will come, if not (as you have called it) beeing Forced! Not One! I myself have no pride of being upset over being dragged or drawn of God to Christ! I have no Problem with that whatsoever. Because the alternative is the will of man which is to do whatever I want (which like everyone else, is to sin). My Will, the will of man! 

Andrew responds: 

As the post continues, my concern that such a stance might lead to a view that degrades human dignity is born out.  God does not treat us as robots or slave insects.  While the infection of sin has touched us all, human nature is not reprehensible.  What God creates is good.  Our will, though suffering under passion, weakness, and sin, is still our own and can be directed to that which is true, good, and holy.   

The post cites many Scriptures, but the slant given to each of them is the same and sometimes the interpretation violates what they actually say.  Because of time I will reserve myself to the first two.   

Romans 3:10 - The emphasis is that only the righteous one, Christ, can put us into right relationship with God.  The Christian is moved by the Holy Spirit to have faith and then to live it out.  The fact that God calls us and empowers us to be his apostles does not destroy human freedom.  Indeed, the grace of God perfects it.  Without the Lord we would be lost.  Separated from God, nothing we might do would have any saving value.   

John 6:44 - The post makes "either/or" what is "because of/with".  The post does not carefully review the words:  "No man can come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me draw him."  Divine providence does not destroy the volition and movement but makes it possible.  As the Midler song would put it, "You (God) are the wind beneath my wings." 

While the author of the post denies the concept of FREE WILL, he contradicts himself when discussing sin.   

Poster writes: 

>>>thus meaning God creates people who will never be ALLOWED to experience faith in Christ...thus, they are damned... >>> 

Think of the implications of what you are saying. Are you saying God "DIDN'T" know who would be damned before He created them? Because If He did (and God knows everything) then He created them knowing that they would be damned! From before the First day, God knew! That's why the scriptures were written with Prophesy thousands of years ago. From before the Creation of Adam it was known. Of course God knew, He knows everyrthing! That's a given for any Christian! And of course He created them anyway! That doesn't make him unrighteous, that's an humanistic philosophy, not Christianity! Man is responsible for His own sin, not God for creating Him. He didn't create man in Sin, man of himself, of his "Own Free Will" fell into sin. And with that falling of Adam, man "lost" his free will! He then became in Bondage (a Slave) to sin, where His will is to do whatever he wants, not what God wants! The Sin is His, not God's for creating the first man sinless! 

Andrew responds: 

Yes, God does know everything.  And yes, "Man is responsible for his own sin."  However, this culpability does not end with Adam.  We did not forfeit the freedom of our will after the fall.  Admittedly, we possessed no longer the preternatural gifts and were subject to the lower passions, weakness, and sin-- but we could still reason and will.  This post would not even allow for a restoration of the will in Christ, the bondage has merely been moved from sin to Christ as some sort of celestial overmaster-- the slavery remains.  This is an appalling view.  Obedience to Christ is not automatic.  Fidelity to the Gospel is a cooperation of our intellects and wills to the saving kerygma.      

The post presented is self-contradictory and not reflective of the basic human experience of freedom.  The negative corollary would be the late Flip Wilson's comedic line, "The devil made me do it."  The problem is not quite so simple.  We have to take responsibility for our actions.