RCC Twists Parables to Deny Grave  
  
The following is a response to Lou's post that refutes the use of the parables, particularly regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man, in regard to immediate life after death.  Nicholas and Lou believe in soul-sleep (actually, a non-existence) until the restoration of the saved.  Not only is such an idea offensive to the communion of the saints, it violates the economy of God and the later teaching of the Scriptures.   

Lou writes:  

The Parable Of The Rich Man and Lazarus 

The Scriptures declare in the book of Mark 4:34 - But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.  

Jesus spoke in parables to get a specific point across. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE. It is the last in a line of parables starting in Luke 15:4. 

Parables are not to be taken literally. They make use of allegory and symbolism and figurative speech to establish a spiritual truth or teach a moral or lesson. Parables are not specific to the New Testament only. Judges 9: 8-15 is an example of a parable. This, of course is not to be taken literally. Who has ever heard of trees talking and conversing with one another asking olive trees, fig trees, vines, and brambles to reign as king. Who has witnessed such things, besides those who perhaps have smoked, snorted, injected, or drank some kind of mind-altering substance! This particular parable is cited by many - both catholics and protestant groups alike, as proof that there is conscienceousness in death and a literal place of eternal torment called hell. The translation of the Greek word Hadesis the GRAVE It's Hebrew counterpart is Sheol. They mean one and the same. Consequently, this teaching is bogus and not in harmony with the Scriptures. It's roots are in paganism where is the residence of ALLfalse religions. And this is the source of Roman Catholicism's and their protestant daughters teachings regarding the teaching of hell, among other false teachings.  

The translation of the Greek word Hadesis the GRAVE It's Hebrew counterpart is Sheol. They mean one and the same. Consequently, this teaching is bogus and not in harmony with the Scriptures. It's roots are in paganism where is the residence of ALLfalse religions. And this is the source of Roman Catholicism's and their protestant daughters teachings regarding the teaching of hell, among other false teachings.  

Let's now examine the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. 

Luke 16:19-31  

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.  

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.  

This parable cannot be understood literally because:  

Andrew responds: 

Dear Lou,  

Modernists and their religions of accommodation do much to spiritualize away the true meaning of Scripture.  It is too broad a brush stroke to say that Jesus did not intend any literal meaning to the parables.  This is a peculiar element of contemporary fundamentalism.  While it argues for a literal meaning for the story of creation in Genesis, which actually does possess allegorical elements, offensive sayings from the mouth of Jesus about such matters as the real presence of the Eucharist and the afterlife are diminished as figurative.  The parables of Jesus were purposely expressed in familiar and realistic terms to communicate the authenticity of his message.  Thus, he speaks of a rich man and the poor Lazarus, the owner of a vineyard and his workers, a king and his tenants, a good shepherd searching for his lost sheep, and a good housewife who discovers her missing coin.  People familiar to his listeners populate the stories of Jesus, everyone from Jewish elders and priests to tax collectors.   

All this is a preamble to your argument (spiritualizing as allegory the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus) that there is no hell and no life beyond the grave for the damned.  You are correct that "Hades" is a Greek word that refers to the grave and not to the English word, "Hell", as commonly understood.  However, the grave must not be interpreted, as a secular cemetery caretaker would understand it.  The word refers to the place of the dead, not necessarily the place where the evil dead are punished.  Yes, the Hebrew counterpart is "Sheol".  The two terms are very close in meaning.  Sheol was understood in the Old Testament as a common fate of all the deceased, a place of darkness and dismal obscurity.  This Jewish usage will find itself reflected in the ten occurrences of "Hades" in the New Testament.  Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek saw death as annihilation. 

The Jews of Christ's day had developed a belief in a restoration to life from Hades.  Views differed as to whether this resurrected life would be bodily or as spirits with the angels.  This belief in resurrection was also closely associated with judgment, where the righteous would receive eternal life and the wicked eternal destruction (death) or eternal torment.  The Jewish text 1 Enoch 22 (fourth century BC, among Qumran discovery) presents four different classes of dead awaiting judgment.  Later conceptions reduce the groups to two.  The Jews spoke of treasuries of souls (2 Bar. 21:33; 30:1; 4 Ezra 4:35,41; 7:32,80,85,95,101,121; etc.).  The wicked are depicted in Ezra 7:75-101 as sad while the righteous are happy in anticipating the destiny awaiting them.  During the New Testament period, Jewish literature occasionally admits that the eternal punishment of the wicked begins in Hades.  It becomes associated with fire (Sirach 21:9-10).  The Jewish historian Josephus claimed that Pharisees believed in immediate rewards and punishments "under the earth".   

As we can see, the roots of such beliefs were not entirely in pagan religions.  Such was a part of the Jewish inheritance passed on to the early Catholic community and from there to the many other churches (Protestant and Orthodox).       

Let us look at Luke 16:19-31.  Jesus adopts something of the popular Jewish understanding and advances it.  While it is not clear, it seems that only the rich man goes to Hades where he is tormented by fire.  Lazarus, on the other hand, is presented at "Abraham's bosom" in paradise.  The two places are in view of one another (4 Ezra 7:85,93) but this need not imply that both are in the underworld.  (There are sources, 4 Ezra 7:36-38; 1 En. 108:14-15; Apoc. El. 5:27-28, that state that paradise and Gehenna will be in sight of one another, even after the final judgment.)   

You stipulate that "Abraham's bosom is NOT the home of the saved."  You also insist that hell is figurative as well.  The text does not support this interpretation.  Hebrews 11:10 refers to Abraham as he was on his earthly pilgrimage, not to the great patriarch who has passed from this life.  The Jews saw themselves as children of the promise or covenant made to Abraham by God.  Christians see themselves as spiritual sons and daughters of Abraham, trusting in Jesus our Savior, a son of Abraham, our elder brother in faith, and Son of God.  A father draws his child in love to his bosom.  This term of endearment cannot be underestimated.  It literally means that one has been invited into the family and household of God.  One has gone home.   

You assert that those in heaven will not be able to talk with those in hell.  Until recently, I must admit that the question had never occurred to me.  You cite Isaiah 65:17, saying that former things will not be remembered.  Certainly there are Catholics who view the afterlife in similar terms. Fr. Robert J. Levis at the EWTN website rendered a similar answer to answer to a questioner.  Interestingly, his response seems to have been deleted from their archives.   

A critical reaction from Howard Richards on 9-28-19 remains posted:   

Dear Fr. Levis, 

I am quite surprised that you doubt that we will recognize each other in Heaven! A more usual controversy in the churches I've attended is whether we'll know everything at once, or whether we'll have an experience similar to the joy of always learning. Such a question, which is time-bound, may in fact be meaningless in Heaven.   

Since Christ is all-knowing, and since "when he appears, we shall be like him" (1 John 3:2, NIV), presumably we will have, or have access to, all knowledge in Heaven. Certainly there will be no secrets there! (Luke 12:2,3; note that this is in future tense.)  

Also, David was confident of seeing his dead infant again (2 Samuel 12:23). Even more remarkably, the three apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration were able to instantly recognize Moses and Elijah -- even though they had of course never seen them before.  

Regarding the question of how we will be able to feel joy knowing others do not share it, I think this is covered by Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli in the "Handbook of Christian Apologetics" in the chapter defending the doctrine of hell.  

Do you really think that saints can hear your prayers now and then fail to recognize you after you've died? Suppose you're asking them to intervene with someone who's slipping into sin -- would this disturbing news destroy their blessedness, so that they can't hear your prayer? And the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints seems to have in it some awareness of each other (957, 962, 1370, and 1469 of the Catechism, for example). 

Here ends the post.  Note the reference to the transfiguration.  Moses and Elijah stand beside Christ.  They are not sleeping or worm food waiting for spiritual reintegration.  They are alive, and unless you are going to suggest that they are mindless apparitions, they are conscious of themselves and the Lord.   

Yes, the dead will hear the summons of Christ and shall arise from their graves.  However, as I have said before, the word grave means more than a mound of earth.  Your denial of a depository of souls runs counter to the views held by the Jews and acknowledged, with some modification, by Christ.  The fallen souls of hell have not ceased to exist.  Revelation 20:14 does indeed speak about Death and Hades being thrown into the "pool of fire," the "second death".  But, this passage must be read with Revelation 2:11:  "Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.  The victor shall not be HARMED by the second death."  In other words, those with their names in the "book of life" will be saved.  This pool of fire does not imply annihilation, which would contradict the divine economy.  This second death is final damnation.  The particular judgment is followed upon by the general or last judgment after which the two great realities will be heaven and hell.   

Note Revelation 20:10:  "The Devil who has led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were.  There they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER."  Nothing is said about this pool or its contents ever dissolving.  We read in Revelation 21:8:  "But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshippers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death." 

The permanent non-existence of the damned, which is not substantiated by the aforementioned texts, you would subscribe on a temporary basis to the righteous elect.  Thus, not only is there no room in your theology for ghosts (souls in purgatory?), but the communion of the saints in heaven is also rejected.  This means that you must do mental gymnastics about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the transfiguration scene, and the promise of paradise "this day with me" made by Jesus to the good thief. 

The logical convolution you present makes any form of analytical dissection difficult, to say the least.   Matthew 16:27 is not usually quoted by fundamentalists because it bluntly states that Jesus will "reward every man according to his WORKS."  The Catholic faith consequently maintains that a faith in Christ actualized in lived charity is saving.  The contention for an immediate particular judgment in no way subtracts from the final judgment and consummation of all things in Christ.  The text you cite offers no contradiction in terms.  Indeed, Purgatory, which you reject, would cease to exist at the last judgment.  This would be the closest notion to your interpretation of "grave" since such souls are considered absolutely helpless.  However, in contradiction to your view, they would still exist and have a degree of awareness during the interval before the last judgment.  Your view of heaven is different from Catholics and most Protestants.  Protestants often believe that the justified dead are immediately transported to heaven.  You would posit them in the oblivion of the grave, as crudely understood today.   

Returning to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, you see a contradiction in that as a disembodied soul he could not endure the corporeal pains of hell.  This touches many other issues that you conveniently ignore.  Is the fire of hell literal or spiritual?  The Catholic Church contends that there is a real fire but does not enter into any debate regarding its chemical composition.  Outside of the usual temporal-spatial categories of earthbound matter, can we talk in concrete terms about the sense duration in the afterlife?  It is most difficult.  Does the resurrection of a body and the restoration of matter and spirit take place immediately or at the last judgment?  What will be the characteristics of this new body, spiritualized or outside our current categories of understanding?  If we can take a hint from the glorified body of Christ, the saints will be tangible and yet not liable to mortal limitations.  Will the damned be given a body precisely so that they a pain of the senses might distract them from a far greater pain, the rejection of God and the loss of heaven?  Many of the fathers of the Church suspected it would be so.   

Lou, our souls do not sleep or die with our bodies.  The human soul, unlike the mortal body, has no parts that can break down.  The suggestion otherwise, is something you would have in common with materialists and atheists.  The God who breathed our spirits into the dust of the earth can certainly create for us new bodies and make us whole.   

Closing, it should be said that some Catholic theologians have suggested that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not so much a depiction of heaven and hell as it is of the limbo of the fathers and purgatory.  If the story Jesus tells is considered as something that has already happened, then the gates of heaven had not yet been opened by the saving death of Christ.  Jesus descends to the dead (so-called hell or to the quick), the limbo of the fathers, to take the righteous dead with him into heaven.  The Greek Orthodox display this teaching in an icon that has Jesus pulling Adam and Eve into heaven by their hair.  After his descent to the dead and the ascension, the limbo of the fathers ceases to exist.  Might this have been where Lazarus resided, along with Abraham and all the prophets of old, awaiting their Savior, Jesus Christ?  While it is possible that the rich man was damned and in hell, he might also have been in purgatory.  This is a hypothesis because he calls upon Abraham and his recognized as one of his children.  It would seem that such a tie would be breached by the alienation of hell.  Thus, the thirst and suffering of the rich man might not be permanent.  Further, no matter whether it is hell or purgatory, the proximity between them and hell might have allowed some degree of dialogue, if not a crossing over.  One has to wonder if a self-possessed damned soul would be interested in any communication at all, although in the parable the rich man is still only thinking of himself and not rejoicing in God's justice and mercy regarding the beggar.       

Peace, 
Andrew 

This is an addendum to a previous post, repeated below: 

Dear Lou, 

Actually, the parables of Jesus often reflect the settings familiar to his listeners; they are grounded on the literal lived experience of people.  It is peculiar that, one who usually interprets Scripture in a one dimensional, fundamentalist manner, would then reverse methodology in this case.  The only reason I can conclude is that the blatant message found in Luke 16:19-31 is one from which the anti-Catholic critic cannot tolerate.  The parables of Jesus speak about the Kingdom of God.  This is their general thrust.  As such, they put worldly wisdom on its head, challenging disciples of our Lord to think as God thinks and not as the world and men.   

Let me attempt to get the points of opposition here straight: 

• Denial of consciousness after death;
• Denial of a literal hell;
• Denial of any memory of those not in heaven;
• Denial of the particular judgment (just the general one);
• Denial of any significant immediate existence after death;
• Denial of any future existence for the damned (annihilation). 

Coming during our Lenten preparation for Easter, the message espoused here is particularly offensive.  You would prefer the belief of the primitive Jews (who spoke less about any form of afterlife and saw God's justice enacted in progeny and property) to what they believed during the time of Jesus and his Good News for the poor.  Whatever this world takes away, God will return in abundance to his children.  Jesus rises from the dead.  When he appears to his friends he tells them, "Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have" (Luke 24:39).  Our ghosts will be restored to our bodies.  The just will go to eternal life.  As for those who reject God's mercy, they bring damnation upon themselves.  

"Then he will say to those (GOATS) on his left hand, 'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you did not give me to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take me in; naked, and you did not clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he will answer them, saying, 'Amen I say to you, as long as you did not do it for one of these least ones, you did not do it for me.' And these will go into everlasting punishment, but the just into everlasting life" (see Matthew 25:31-46). 

May we steal heaven like the good thief whom our Lord promised, "This day you will be with me in paradise."   

ANDREW