The Most Unholy "Holy Fathers"  
  
The following is a response by Andrew to a post from Lou that maligns the Church because some of the popes were less than holy.  While sin is a reality with which we must all deal, he draws the wrong conclusions and even confuses the facts, including the names of the popes he lists.   

Lou writes:  

Were These "Holy Fathers" Really Holy??? 

Below is a partial list of popes documenting the crimes committed by these so-called "vicars" of Christ. Although not every pope is guilty of committing such heinous crimes, nonetheless they must be somewhat condoned, since they are not condemned, for even a "sinful pope" is still considered a member of the church and is to be obeyed. Should they not have been excommunicated??? If we all were to believe all that came from the lips of these so-called infallible "Holy Fathers", then we all should discard the truth that the earth revolves around the sun, for wasn't Gallileo, under severe torture, forced to recant the truth that he himself discovered??? Of course, the RCC recently ADMITTED their error. What? The infallible admitted their fallibility????? Of course, when the light of truth is shined in it's strength, error possesses no other choice but to submit to truth. And so will it be in the final analysis: All will bow their knee to Christ, the King of Kings - including the unsaved wicked of earth, and satan and the fallen angels that joined with him in rebellion against God. 

Andrew writes: 

A number of misconceptions are operative here.  The fact that even Popes are sinners does not refute their authority or the honor accorded the papal chair instituted by Christ.  Pope John Paul II receives the sacrament of penance on a weekly basis.  Like Peter who denied our Lord three times, the Popes are infallible (regarding faith and morals), not personally impeccable.  Papal authority is given, not to pamper the individuals so chosen, but to protect and promote the deposit of faith and the unity of the Church. 

Popes cannot compel anyone to act against his or her informed and free conscience.  Popes cannot compel anyone to commit sinful acts.  This is the mind of the Church.  As for Galileo, he was not tortured and there were Church authorities who lent support to many of his views.  Yes, the Holy Office put him through severe trials, for which Pope John Paul II has offered a "mea culpa", however, Galileo himself was not the absolute child of innocence in some of his behavior and views.  He was a scientist who practiced astrology (for profit).  His synthesis of science and theology was also suspect.  One has to remember that Galileo's views would have religious consequences-- regarding the biblical view of the cosmos and man's place in it.  It is interesting that fundamentalists who reject evolution today are critical of Catholicism's reserve toward Galileo.  Some authorities have asserted that it was not so much what Galileo taught as it was his timing that got him in trouble.  The Church was concerned that if people took the bible and Christian allegory literally in regard to the created universe, the new views might propel people toward a separation from the Church or disbelief altogether (atheism).  The culture had to be prepared for the new ideas and science.  Ultimately this happened anyway, although many of the Church's fears were also realized.        

A quick look at Lou's references: (his words in italics) 

1. Pope Sergius III (904 - 911) obtained his office by murder. He fathered several illegitimate children by Marozia, who assassinated Pope Leo VI (928 - 929), and put her own teenage son (John XI) as Pope.  

Yes, there was little good about this man.  Contrary to your remarks, he had been duly elected to succeed Theodore II in early 898.  However, supporters of the late Pope Formosus deposed him.  The civil authorities had much to do with his return.  Duke Alberic of Spoleto helped him to remove Christopher, an antipope who had deposed Pope Leo V.  The Roman consul Theophylact, his cruel wife Theodora, and this misbegotten Pope manipulated each other for their own ends.  The ruthless Crescentii family would seek to dominate the Church for years.  About the only good thing he did do was to restore the Basilica of St. John Lateran.  It is not clear that he was the father of Pope John XI.  The miracle is that the teachings of faith were left unsoiled while such political meandering was going on.  Bad men cannot destroy the Church or the true faith, even when they occupy the shepherding roles in the family of God. 

2. Pope John XII (955 - 964) is described in the Catholic encyclopedia as a coarse, immoral man. The Catholic collection of the lives of the Popes, the "Liber Pontificalis" said: "He spent his entire life in adultery." Catholic bishop Luitprand states that "he had no respect for single girls, married woman or widows - they were sure to be defiled by him." 

Except for political intrigue, he rarely asserted his role as visible spiritual head of the Church.  He fumbled in seeking various alliances, found himself deposed, returned to office, and later died as the emperor he had betrayed marched toward Rome.  Note that it was a CATHOLIC bishop that pointed out his sinfulness.   

3. Pope Boniface VII (984 - 985), John XII and Leo VIII were described by the Bishop of Orleans as "monsters of guilt, reeking in blood and filth." 

Again, a CATHOLIC bishop is the one who reprimands the bad behavior of Popes, the bishops of Rome.  The Church, herself, acknowledges that not all the men who have lead her were perfect or good.  This is besides the point of her claims.  Boniface VII was NOT a true Pope, but a false antipope.  His corruption was so bad that the good CATHOLIC people of Rome deposed and executed him.  John XII was a confused teenager who forgot his role as a shepherd of Christ.  He was little more.  Leo VIII was a layman hastily ordained and elected Pope by order of the Emperor Otto I.  He was deposed and excommunicated by the restored John XII but re-instituted by the emperor when John died.  Leo VIII died the next year.  His legacy was nothing of consequence.   

4. Pope John XV (985 - 996) split the churches finances among his relatives and was described as "covetous of filthy lucre and corrupt in all his acts."  

Actually, the Cresentii family took credit for his elevation to Pope, seeking to reassert their domination over Rome.  To his credit, the Pope regretted their influence and appealed to the emperor for assistance in freeing the Church from their political stranglehold.  Unfortunately, he died before imperial assistance arrived.  He established the solemn canonization process followed to the present day.  God worked his purposes through the weakest of instruments.   

5. Pope Benedict IX (1033 - 1045) committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight, robbed pilgrims, and was regarded as a hideous criminal. The people drove him out of Rome: The Catholic encyclopedia says, "He was a disgrace to the chair of Peter."  

As we have seen before, a powerful Roman family, in this case the Tusculani, sought to control and manipulate the Papacy.  The Council of Sutri (1046) rejected him and two other claimants to the See of Peter, electing Clement II.  When Clement died he tried to retake the Papacy, but was deposed by the emperor and died in a monastery in 1055.   

6. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) promoted the Inquisition, surpassing all his predecessors in killing over one million people. 

 The business about a million people being killed is a revisionist lie unsupported by reliable evidence.  Further, abuses in the Inquisition were largely the work of civil society and not of the Church.  The Papacy and the Church cannot be condemned for the sins of the membership or governments beyond her control.  As we have seen in the Popes mentioned in this list so far, outside political forces are often at work when things go wrong.  The Inquisition, in principle, was reasonably sound.  The governments sought to protect civil society, viewing religion as glue to maintain unity.  Similarly, the churchmen often collaborated with civil governments in such matters to insure fidelity and oneness in faith.  Protestants were also guilty of abuses and many of the Protestant reformers endorsed the murder of Catholics.  There was enough blame to go around.  Pope Innocent III rightly sought to restore papal prerogatives from the bondage of strong families and civil leaders.  He used the title, "Vicar of Christ," to emphasize his visible intermediary role as the spiritual delegate between the Church and the gates of heaven.  He supported the Fourth Crusade to liberate the Holy Land but not the subsequent sacking of Constantinople.  After it happened, he appointed a Latin patriarch for Constantinople and sought ecclesiastical unity.  He summoned the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, a meeting of bishops that would have important consequences up to our own day.  He supported the Franciscans and the Dominicans.  He sought peaceful dialogue with the Albigensians and other heretics; but he had to become more proactive against them when they killed his legate in 1208.           

7. Pope Boniface VIII (1294 - 1303). The Catholic encyclopedia states "Scarcely any possible crime was omitted - heresy, gross and unnatural immorality, idolatry, magic, simony ... his whole pontificate was one record of evil." Dante visited Rome and described the Vatican as a "sewer of corruption" and assigned Boniface VII, Nicholas III and Clement V to the "lowest parts of hell." He proposed to be an atheist and in 1302 issued the "Unum Sanctum" officially declaring the Roman Catholic church as the only true church, outside of which on one can be saved. 

I suspect that there is some confusion here regarding Boniface VIII and Boniface VII.  Pope Boniface VIII valiantly sought to restore the role of the papacy in the Christian world.  Unfortunately, the civil powers proved too great.  He sought to bring peace to England and France by banning taxation of clergy to pay for wars.  However, economic forces and French commerce forced him to back off.  An exception was made in cases of national emergency and defense.  He issued UNAM SANCTAM on November 18, 1302, emphasizing the superior status of his spiritual power over that of temporal rulers.  King Philip IV rejected his claims.  His councilor, the Colonna family, and various other enemies seized the Pope and abused him.  Outraged citizens of Rome freed the Pope but shocked that such humiliation might be perpetrated against his person, the poor Pope died on October 12.  As for Dante visiting Rome and assigning Clement V and others to hell, THE INFERNO is an allegory that cannot be taken literally.  Do you place a human work on the level with the Scriptures?  I hope not.  Further, I hope you know that Clement V was a Frenchman and the first of the Popes to reside in Avignon, NOT Rome. 

8. Pope John XXII (1410 - 1415) was accused by 37 clergy witnesses of fornication, adultery, incest, sodomy, simony, theft and murder. It was proved by a legion of witnesses that he had seduced and violated 300 nuns. He kept a harem at Boulogne of 200 girls. He was publicly called the devil incarnate. He has been called the most depraved criminal who ever sat on the papal throne.  

Why should we trust your testimony when you cannot even get the names right?  This ridicule of papal princes becomes ridiculous with the parroting of exaggerated slurs. It was the antipope John XXIII (1410-1415) that you cite.  He was NOT a true Pope.  It is for this reason that Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli took the name of Pope John XXIII (1958-1963).  The REAL Pope John XXII sat on the chair of Peter from 1316 to 1334.  He practiced a simple lifestyle, reorganized the Curia, established new dioceses, codified Church law, supported scholarship, and sponsored missionary efforts in Asia.  

9. Pope Pius II (1458 - 1464) fathered many illegitimate children and taught others to do likewise.  

Here you do the injustice of dismissing his personal moral reform and repentance prior to the acceptance of several ecclesiastical posts.  Would you condemn a man for past wrongs even in Christ had forgiven him.  He was a courageous man to admit his earlier faults, even writing a personal autobiography.   

10. Pope Paul II (1464 - 1471) maintained a house full of concubines.  

It is peculiar that you would slur and condemn this pope, given that he dissolved the Roman Academy because he found the attitude of the humanists there to be pagan and dangerous.   

11. Pope Sixtus IV (1471 - 1484) financed his wars by selling church offices to the highest bidders.  

The machinations of a functioning Church have changed over time and often reflected the structure of civil society.  Such was arguably the case in the time of Sixtus IV.  This Franciscan rebuilt much of Rome, had the Sistine Chapel constructed, and was one of the founders of the Vatican Library and Archives.  Why is it that you omit the more positive elements and only sling dirt?    

12. Pope Innocent VII (1484 - 1492) fathered 16 illegitimate children by various women.  

You have once again confused two different popes.  Pope Innocent VII (1404-1406) sought to end the Great Schism.  The pope you actually mean is Innocent VIII.  He condemned witchcraft in 1484, something I hope with which you would concur. 

13. Pope Alexander VI (1492 - 1503) committed incest with his two sisters and daughter. On October 31, 1501 he conducted the worst ever sex orgy in the Vatican.  

Ah, finally you have come to the infamous Borgia.  This man neglected the spiritual needs and goods of the Catholic Church to enrich his family.  He made serious plans in 1497 for the reform of the Church, but his personal weaknesses and political ambitions stifled his good intentions.  The miracle is that the Catholic Church could survive the reign of such a man and that he might do some good work despite himself.  Such is the protection of the Holy Spirit over the Church.  He supported the restoration of the Christian faith to Greenland and did much to further missionary work in the New World and the Far East.  Just as excessive claims to vindicate him should be avoided, so should unbridle and bigoted assaults that ridicule the Church. 

14. Pope Paul III (1534 - 1549) as a cardinal fathered three sons and a daughter and sought advice from astrologers. 

Here once more we have a man whom morally reformed his life and as Pope devoted himself to true Church reform.  He supported the new religious orders and sought genuine reform in the face of Protestantism, setting the stage for Trent.   

15. Pope Leo X (1513 - 1521) the Catholic encyclopedia says "was possessed by an insatiable love of pleasure, revelry and carousing. Luther visited Rome and said: "No one can imagine what sins and infamous actions are committed in Rome." A saying was: "If there is a hell, Rome is built over it."  

The citation of the Catholic Encyclopedia here is curious and considering the faulty facts so far, one would need clear citation bibliography and pagination if it is to be taken seriously.  The pope authorized the continued work on St. Peter's basilica, supported the arts, and added greatly to the Vatican Library.  He was known to be MORAL AND RELIGIOUS in his personal life.  I would suspect that the distortions from Luther are because Pope Leo X rightly excommunicated him in 1520.   

16. Pope Joan was a female pope whose name was changed later to Pope Zacharias. Luther, on visiting Rome reported her statue in a back street, and John Huss referred to her in his defence as the Council of Constance and this went unchallenged. She died in childbirth while in a public procession.  

Well, there goes what was left of your credibility.  There was NO SUCH PERSON as Pope Joan.  It was a myth taken up by anti-Catholic reformers to mock the papacy.  The fanciful legend has her ruling for two years between the pontificates of Leo IV and Benedict III.  Other variations on the fable place her rule two hundred years later in 1100.  However, the historical record shows that there was no such gap of time available for her insertion.   

17. Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) brought the dead body of former Pope Formosus (891 - 897) to trial, hacked off his decaying finger and had him dragged through the streets of Rome and thrown into the Tiber river.  

It was indeed a lurid incident.  Stephen VI was the first of several popes dominated by powerful families and civil authorities.  The late Pope Formosus had crowned Arnulf as Holy Roman Emperor, making the House of Spoleto feel betrayed.  They would take their revenge upon Formosus through their Stephen VI.  When he had served their purposes, they had him imprisoned and murdered.  It should be noted that succeeding popes REPUDIATED the so-called Cadaver Synod and reinstated Formosus in papal records.  Papal authority is such pragmatic concerns are not guaranteed.  This says noting about true papal authority and infallibility. 

18. Pope Eugene IV (1431 - 1447) condemned Joan of Arc to be burned alive as a witch, but Pope Benedict IV (1919) declared her a saint.  

This incredible man surrendered his vast wealth to the poor and joined the Augustinian Canons.  He defended papal authority and won a short-lived reunion of the Eastern and Western Church.  As for the poor maid of France, Pope Callistus commanded that her trial be scrutinized and she was declared innocent of all charges in 1456.  Despite your assertion, Rome and its representative thought the proceedings against Joan were quite irregular.  Joan's trial by the English was more a political than a religious event.  Religion was made a scapegoat by the English to kill this heroine of France.   

19. The "Great Schism" of 1378 lasted 50 years, where Italian and French popes cursed each other. Is this the same morally pure church that Christ left to preach the gospel? When confronted with such evil papal history, the Catholic church, which claims "infallibility", teaches that "A sinful pope ... remains a member of the church, and ... from whom we may not withdraw obedience." Catholic encyclopedia Volume 4 page 435.  

You make no distinction between the true popes and the false antipopes.  This is a fatal flaw to your contention.  If there was any curse, it was from God against those who would divide his Church.  There are antipopes today.  One was recently elected by certain traditionalists who hold that the See of Peter is vacant.  This antipope is an American and he even has a web site.  He is not a true pope, either.  As for the quote about a sinful pope requiring our obedience, there is some truth to that.  We follow the lead of the pope, in a thinking way, not because he is perfectly holy but because HE IS PETER, the visible ROCK of Christ's Church. 

20. Pope Alexander III decreed in 1170 that wills had to be made in front of a priest, or excommunication (cutting off from church and sentence to hell) would result. 

This legislation, if accurate probably had to do with the making of oaths to God.  Today, prenuptial investigation forms, witness forms, etc. must be signed in front of a priest and confirmed with his signature and the church seal.  Civil society often used clergy, used to keeping records and literate, to insure that documents were correct and authentic.  The fact that priests and deacons can perform marriages in the United States that are recognized by the government is a continuation of this collaboration.  Alexander III was a brilliant canonist and he set the two-thirds rule for cardinals in the conclave election of popes.  He helped to promote the rule of law.  This did not make him unholy as you suggest. 

Lou writes: 

Jesus said in Matthew 7:18, 20 - "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit ... by their fruits ye shall know them." 

Andrew responds: 

While there is some truth to your understanding of this verse, we must also appreciate that the Catholic Church is NOT a purely human institution.  Christ died on the tree of the cross that we might have life.  He makes himself the vine and us the branches.  The fruit of the tree of the Church is good because Christ is good.  The wonder is that bad and poor men could not destroy the Church, even when they were made her chief shepherd.    

Lou writes: 

These are the results of sinful man taking on a position that was not given by God. The popes set themselves up as lords over God's flock. God's Word says: 1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.  Instead, they have made themselves an example of evil in the which this institution has much to be ashamed over. Just another proof in a lengthy line of proof-positives that the papacy is NOT of God Almighty. 

Andrew responds: 

I have reserved myself to examining the names you offered.  I am not flattened by the sinfulness of a few.  You omitted the many saints in their number.  According to the same logic you would condemn all the apostles for the greed of Judas and the cowardice of Peter.  Sorry, but it does not wash.  The Popes do not set themselves as lords over God's people; rather, Christ has appointed them as the chief shepherds over his flock.  He gave them the keys of the kingdom and promised not to abandon the Church, even to the end of the world.  Praise Jesus!  He has not abandoned his people!