RCC Puts men Over the Word of God

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Andrew Apologetic Ministries

RCC Puts Men Over the Word of God

The following is a debate between Lou and Andrew on the authority (or lack thereof) of the Church over the Scriptures. Lou fails to see that he has made himself the supreme interpreter, instead of the shepherds commissioned by Christ and safeguarded in truth by the Holy Spirit.

Lou writes:

RESPONSE, part 2

Doctrines Of The Catholic Catechism
Part 2: Interpreting The Word Of God Is Only For The Magisterium Of The Church

One sure-fire way of assuming authority over the Lord's people is to make them believe that the laity are not qualified to interpret Scripture. People are led to believe that they must be educated in the Greek, Hebrew, and Latin languages in order to understand God's Word. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth!

Andrew responds:

The opposite extreme, of which you are an example, is that an appreciation of the original Scriptural languages and texts is insignificant. The truth rests between the extremes. Every translation with accompanying commentary is an interpretation. The role of authorities is already exercised before a person even picks up a bible. Some readers purchase bibles with parallel texts from various versions in the hope of not missing something because of their linguistic ghetto. Most bibles are the product of Scripture scholars from particular religious confessions, be they Protestant or Catholic. The role of the teaching Church is implied from the very beginning. Any contrary claim illogically maintains that the bible sort of manufactured itself. It is for this reason that Protestant catechesis often stresses the divine inspiration to the eclipse of any human authorship.

People can read the bible with understanding. However, guidance from Church authority (instituted by Christ) insures authenticity in understanding and a oneness in faith. Subtract the Magisterium and doctrinal deviation soon occurs and ecclesiastical fragmentation follows.

Lou writes:

Most of this post is very eloquent in defending the authority of the catholic church in interpreting Scripture. Very elegant, however, but also very lacking in Scriputure for substantiation. For those responses that are not Scriptural responses, only one response on my part would therefore be required and most appropriate: "To the law and to the testimony, If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Andrew responds:

I have already spoken about this somewhat obscure verse in which you place so great a weight. In response, I told you that the proclamation of the Catholic Church does point to Christ, the Light of the World, and that new dawn of Easter. The teaching authority and traditions of faith do not contradict or invalidate God's Word. In any case, Isaiah is referring to the portion of the Book of Isaiah that regards him and his particular conflict. Note will reiterate what I wrote in my last response. If seen in regard to the verses that precede, it would seem that a contrast is being made between accepting the revelation given them and the violation of the true God's prerogatives in seeking out mediums and fortunetellers. The Catholic Church also condemns such superstition. Seeking conversation with the dead through a medium is strictly prohibited as a serious sin. The use of fortunetellers violates our trust in divine providence. Verse twenty is telling us that "this document" from Isaiah [dissimilar from the prophetic voice under this name in Isaiah chapters 40-45 (Deutero-Isaiah) and Isaiah 56-66] will furnish proper and trustworthy instruction. Some editions move verses 21 and 22 to 14:25: "I will break the Assyrian in my land and trample him on my mountains; he shall pass through it hard-pressed and hungry, and in his hunger he shall become enraged, and curse his king and his gods. HE SHALL LOOK UPWARD, BUT THERE SHALL BE STRICT DARKNESS WITHOUT ANY DAWN; He shall gaze at the earth, but there shall be distress and darkness, with the light blacked out by its clouds. Then his yoke shall be removed from them, and his burden from their shoulder." All other gods will be proven wanting and false. The true God will be revealed.

While I reject the sola-Scriptura approach that came upon us as a novelty of the reformation, the Scriptures support the Catholic stance. Your quick dismissal does a great injustice to the Word of God and to an honest intellectual inquiry.

Lou writes:

The catechism states the following:

(100) The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted SOLELY to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him. (Page 35)

Here we have an instance of where catholic tradition takes precedence over the Word of God!

Andrew responds:

Yes, the Magisterium functions as a divinely instituted teaching authority safeguarded by the Holy Spirit. The tension between the Word of God and this teaching authority (as with sacred tradition) is a false supposition. I suspect that you do not clearly understand this teaching. "Authentic" interpretation means that only the chief shepherds of the Catholic Church can speak regarding the revealed Word in a universal way binding upon believers. Private interpretation, while it should not be contrary to the understanding of tradition and the Magisterium, is not utterly forbidden. People can read the bible with understanding. However, they never read it disconnected from the rest of the believing community. The bible is the book of the Church, not simply of any one individual.

Clarifying matters somewhat, there were other passages in the catechism that you failed to cite:

CCC #91 - All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them (cf. 1 John 2:20, 27) and guides them into all truth (cf. John 16:13).

CCC #92 - "The whole body of the faithful . . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (SENSUS FIDEI) on the part of the whole people, when, 'from the bishops to the last of the faithful,' they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."

CCC #93 - "By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (MAGISTERIUM), . . . receives . . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints . . . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life" (cf. Jude 3).

CCC #95 - "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."

Lou writes:

What I will respond to, however, are the Scripture verses that are employed to support the teaching that the catholic church is the only authority in the interpretation of Scripture.

Andrew responds:

Actually there are many authorities: the Church fathers, tradition, the scholarship of biblical exegetes, etc. Even the study of Protestant Scriptural scholars is deemed important in the Catholic Church. As an example, the Anchor Bible Commentary series is written from an ecumenical perspective. Having said this, the Magisterium functions as the central teaching authority for the Church-- an authority we believe that is specially protected by the Holy Spirit to insure the preservation of the truth and the unity of the family of God.

Lou writes:

Search high and low in the Bible and this teaching is nowhere to be found.

Andrew responds:

Actually, this is not true and one does not have to look too hard to find it.

Lou writes:

By contrast, here's what the Bible has to say:

Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so."

John 5:39 "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing (Holy Spirit) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same ANNOINTING TEACHETH you of all things, and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as it hath TAUGHT you, ye shall abide in him."

2 Timothy 2:15 "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH."

Andrew responds:

Actually, these citations do little for your argument.

Acts 17:11 - Catholic Christians then and today use the Scriptures for missionary work and evangelization. The receptivity of the Jews in Beroea to the Gospel was compared favorably to the poor reception in Thessalonica. These Hellenic Jews searched the Greek version of the Old Testament (the same longer canon used in Catholic bibles) for prophecies relating to Christ. Paul is in the background. His guidance and direction, through his preaching, is precisely what Catholics would see as a magisterial presence.

John 5:39 - This quote actually helps to disqualify your thesis. Searching the Scriptures is insufficient if we do not have God's "word abiding" in us and if we "refuse to come" to the Lord for eternal life (see verses 38 and 40). The Church guarantees that men (outside her ranks) who are misled and not filled with the Spirit will not lead her faithful into error.

1 John 2:27 - Actually, the last phrase, "ye shall abide in him," is not a declarative statement but a command, meaning that as long as we are in union with Christ and his Church community, we can have assurance of salvation and of possessing the truth. It literally reads as, " . . . remain in him." It follows a series of verses (18 through 23) on the antichrists. These false messiahs (literally pseudochrists) are false teachers who are "not of our number," not legitimate disciples of Jesus or members of his holy Church. Anointing refers to those chosen by God, the faithful or elect. We are told that the antichrists denied Jesus to be the Christ (Anointed One) and his unique relationship to the Father. Verse 27 addresses the community or the "children" of God. It singles out not various individuals but whole that is the Catholic Church. The infallibility of the "sensus fidelium" is also a teaching of the Catholic faith taught here.

2 Timothy 2:15 - We are exhorted as Catholic Christians to study and to know the Scriptures. This passage, like the others, is no threat to orthodox teaching and practice. In any case, I suspect that you make more of this archaic translation than can legitimately be made. An old English appreciation of "study" is used here, meaning PREPARATION. Easier for the modern reader, it states: "Do your best [be eager] to present yourself to God as one approved [acceptable], a workman who has no need to be ashamed [disgraced], rightly [without deviation] handling [imparting] the word of truth." This admonition was given because some twisted words to their own liking. Your own confusion over the text probably stems from an exclusive use of an old translation in which the words have altered somewhat in meaning. A study of the original languages is a great help in this regard to insure that the words used are still in agreement with the source texts. Every believer has the responsibility of passing on the true faith to family and friends and others. We are to do so without distortion or omission. The "word of truth" is understood not only to include the written Old Testament Scriptures but the Word of God orally proclaimed in the Church. Remember that the New Testament is still not complete at the time of the epistles. This passage actually speaks more about our participation with God's grace for salvation than it does about the structure of doctrinal transmission.

Let us look at the Scriptures from an honest Catholic perspective:

Infallibility

John 14:26: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Acts 1:8: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."

Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

John 14:16-17: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

God cannot lie. If the Holy Spirit is the true teacher of the apostles and the guardian of the truth in the Catholic Church, as the bible indicates, then we can be confident in the matters of faith and morals the Church offers us. The Church must be infallible if we are to be assured in not losing our way. Those who contend that the Catholic Church fell into error and adulterated the Gospel should be made aware that they insult both our Lord and the Holy Spirit. Fidelity to Christ and the Church, "the pillar and ground of truth" is urged by St. Paul, especially since even early on he could write: "For some have already strayed after Satan" (1 Timothy 5:15). This is often the case for those deafened and blinded to the Catholic Church's message.

The Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against the Church

Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death (gates of hell) shall not prevail against it."

The Scriptural testimony is clear, and is confirmed by history, the Church endures century after century despite all obstacles. Christ's Church did not cease to exist and have to be reinvented at a later date. Such a hypothesis is ridiculous! Man-made religions cannot compete against the divine institution of the Catholic Church.

Church Authority

Hebrews 13:17: Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Matthew 18:17: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

Luke 10:16: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 16:19: "I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Galatians 1:8-9: But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

The claims of authority for the leadership of the Catholic Church find verification in the Scriptures. It is given by Christ and affirmed by the apostles. Since the Church acts in the name of our Lord. We even back up the Decalogue with the precepts of the Catholic Church. Chapter 15 of Acts gives a wonderful instance of leadership among "the apostles and the elders" over the community against those who "troubled [them] with words". This troubling continues today in the voices of secularism and anti-Catholic fundamentalism.

The Bible Belongs to the Catholic Church

Sometimes anti-Catholics talk as if the Catholic Church is the enemy of the bible. The contrary is true; the bible is the Catholic Church's book! The late Paulist priest joked, "It is a shame we never got a copyright on OUR book." The bible did not suddenly come into existence or out of bondage with Martin Luther. Prior to the invention of the printing press, bibles were produced by hand and could be quite expensive and time consuming to create. For this reason they were often secured in churches with locks and chains. A theft could cost the entire faith community its copy of the Scriptures. Many people were illiterate and thus received their bible instruction in preaching and in religious art. The first book printed with the new technology devised by John Gutenberg was probably the Catholic bible. This was done under the auspices of the Church. Prior to Luther's German bible in 1534, some 626 bible editions (or portions thereof) were printed in nations where the Catholic Church held sway. Many of these were in the vernacular languages of the day. Today, the lectionary used at Mass insures a wide exposure to Scripture in our worship. There is a papal indulgence available for faithful bible reading. Every Catholic home probably has a bible, or at least, is supposed to have one. The so-called Catholic hostility to the bible during the Middle Ages and later to bible study groups or societies is a deliberate distortion of the facts by anti-Catholics. The Church was not against the bible; rather, she was opposed to faulty and dangerous translations as rendered by the Waldensians, Albigensians, Wycliff and Tyndale. The fact that churchmen may have gone to unnecessary extremes in combating heretical versions of Scripture does not invalidate their overriding concern. Bible societies, just as they can be today, posed a danger in that false interpretations to bible passages were given to proselytize Catholics from the true faith.

Catholic Approach to Scripture Fosters Unity in Christ

In comparison to the fragmentation evident in Protestantism, the uniformity in doctrine as derived from an ultimate teaching authority over Scripture and Tradition has done much to sustain the Catholic faith. There is only one Christian faith-- a single flock of Christ-- and one shepherd over all. Legend has it that Martin Luther lamented on his deathbed, "My God, what have I done, there are now as many churches as there are heads." It is sometimes joked that if you get three Protestants together to read the bible, you will get three different opinions. So much for private interpretation of the Scriptures; it does not work and to suggest that it does is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and to deny the facts. The abiding unity in faith is proof enough of Catholic claims and would not be possible without divine intervention.

The Pope and Bishops are the Official Interpreters of Scripture

Luke 10:16: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death (gates of hell) shall not prevail against it."

Malachi 2:7: For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and men should seek instruction (law) from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.

The Holy Spirit has functioned as the very soul of the Catholic Church, insuring the efficacy of the sacraments and the truthfulness of official interpretations of the Word of God and his will for us. Certain Protestants claim an immediate mastery of all Scripture as long as they approach it prayerfully and with care. However, the Holy Spirit is not like a light switch that we can turn immediately off and on. While not utterly invalidating the personal meanings we might find in bible reading, we leave the authoritative renderings to the Magisterium (Pope and bishops in union with him). It is interesting that the fundamentalist Protestant claim makes more a claim upon the Holy Spirit and infallibility than does the Pope, himself. He only offers a declaration after extended investigation and consultation, and even then, after much prayer. Unless it is a matter essential to the faith, he usually does not invoke this authority. Infallible papal declarations are quite rare. The Pope does not make something true; rather, he draws our attention to what we have always believed.

The Bible is NOT Self-Interpretive

2 Peter 1:20: First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16: . . . speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. (regarding Paul's letters)

Acts 8:30-31: So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come and sit with him.

These three passages make it evident that the bible cannot explain itself. It is the inspired book of the Church and the Church is its authorized interpreter. The Holy Spirit inspired the bible and it is that same Spirit which safeguards the teaching of the Church regarding the truths of faith and morals. Private interpretation is not absolutely dependable and must be supported by the interpretation given by the Church. Peter argued such about the Old Testament as well as Paul's letters. Philip explains the Christian understanding of the messiah in Isaiah as referring to our Lord. As representatives of the Church, ministers of the Gospel appointed by Christ, they were authorized to fulfill this role.

The Issue of Heresy

These are pretty serious words. Paul is speaking about the early oral tradition of the Church. Paul says that he offers what he himself has received. He speaks as an Apostle of the one true faith, of the one fold of Christ. Sometimes anti-Catholic critics try to use this verse, out of context, against Catholics; however, it will not wash. Like a boomerang it flies back into their faces. They are the ones who discount the role of this oral tradition and the Church that safeguards it. Separated from this living tradition and the true Church, Protestantism has fractured into thousands of sects, each claiming the bible for their own.

2 Timothy 4:3: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

Titus 3:10: As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Romans 16:17: I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.

2 John 10:11: If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

This is precisely what happened. Heresies afflicted the Church, almost from the very beginning. Nevertheless, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church has grown stronger in the face of opposition and has defined her beliefs with deeper insights into the Gospel. The breakaway churches have no safeguard to insure their fidelity in the truth. Indeed, people shop around for a church and minister that fits their tastes. Usually, this means a congregation that fails to challenge its people on basic elements of the Good News. Even fundamentalist Protestant churches, so quick to take stands against Catholicism or issues like homosexuality, can be quite liberal on matters like divorce and artificial contraception. As for the topic of abortion, that attacks at the very heart of the mystery we call the incarnation, there is, and more so than not, a deafening silence in most Protestant churches. Some of their teachers go to ridiculous extremes in order to attack the Catholic faith and our practices. One minister maligned priestly celibacy as unnatural and perverted something that would necessarily lead to all sorts of immorality and abuse of others. Only later did his words return to haunt him when his own child became pregnant and threw his words into his face; after all, she said, "I am just doing what comes natural." Lost in the debate was the possibility of self-control and the wonderful gift that is celibate love-- something praised by St. Paul. It should be said that this same MARRIED minister later got into his own mess of trouble with an adulterous affair. His glass house was shot full of holes! The so-called bible-alone method fails again and again. Without a history and a teaching Church, ministers quickly allow their own pet ideas and ambitions to cloud their proclamation. Some are afraid that the truth will forfeit their congregations, so they change the truth and convince themselves that they are right. Others are as befuddled as those who seek them out for guidance. Liberal Protestantism has taken such a path as far as it can go, straight into agnosticism and a loss of belief altogether. We need to pray for all such lost souls.

Mission of the Church Took Precedence Over the Scriptures

This selection from Matthew reveals that Jesus, to whom all authority properly belonged, extended or gave something of his power to his Apostles so that they might teach them the truth and baptize them in the name of the Trinity. He also tells them that they will not be orphaned; that he will always be with them. Christ will literally continue his saving work through them. Christ will be made present in the proclamation of the Word of God and in the Sacraments. Baptism is the first and the doorway to the sacramental life. Note here that except for the Hebrew Scriptures, there is as yet, no New Testament. The Gospel is entrusted to the Church and only later will this oral tradition be put to writing. Letters will be collected and the Church will determine which books constitute the inspired canon. Except for a few deletions, the Protestant Church only has its bible thanks to the stewardship and faith of the Catholic Church.

Holy Spirit and Infallibility of the Church

John 14:26: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

The same Holy Spirit that would inspire the writing of the Scriptures came first to the Church and has never abandoned her. Jesus sends this Spirit, not merely upon isolated individuals, but in a nurturing and protective way upon the Church, notably the Apostles and their successors, the bishops. The Spirit of God has preserved our assurance of the truth and our unity in faith. Protestant churches have no ecclesial safeguard and liable to constant and unforgiving fragmentation.

Christianity is Not a Book Religion

Romans 10:17: So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Mark 16:20: And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen.

Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation."

There is nothing here about a book-religion or any kind of bible-alone church. Rather, we see what the Catholic Church has done for two thousand years.

Lou writes:

Andrew - you state that the following Scriptures "do little for your argument." Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, whether those things were so." John 5:39 "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing (Holy Spirit) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same ANNOINTING TEACHETH you of all things, and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as it hath TAUGHT you, ye shall abide in him." 2 Timothy 2:15 "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH."

Andrew responds:

Since you quote again these verse, I will repeat my observations for saying that they "do little for your argument."

Lou writes:

Evidently the Bible is in sharp contradiction to the teachings of the catechism! Each Christian is to study and learn the Scriptures. And it's the Holy Spirit that provides the teaching, not the catholic magisterium! So, who should we obey?

Andrew responds:

As I said, the Scriptures you quote say something quite different. Indeed, you have to insert the word "Holy Spirit" into one of the bible texts quoted. It appears that the teaching authority within the Catholic Church does have efficacy and thus should be followed.

Lou writes:

On the contrary, these Scriptures do EVERYTHING for the position that I hold to.

Andrew writes:

I am glad that you hold all Scripture as worthwhile. My comment is that the cited verses provide no assault against Catholic teaching or authority.

Lou writes:

By the way, the reference to 1 John 2:27, I added in parenthesis, the words "Holy Spirit". But that isn't a twisting of Scripture as you suggest. It's quite evident that it's the HOLY SPIRIT that is referred to. He's the ONE that abides in the true Christian.

Andrew responds:

I am sorry you missed my point. Once you add anything, in quotation marks or argumentation, you are adding to Scripture-- or that word you disliked, "supplementing" it. If Catholics were criticized for critical biblical scholarship and commentary footnotes in their bibles, then a level playing field would deny them to the self-proclaimed opposition as well. Every inclusion, no matter how "evident" is an interpretation. Over time, this becomes a tradition. [By the way, exegetes say that the implication or center of gravity is not to the Holy Spirit as such in this particular passage but to an anointing into the Anointed One, Jesus Christ.] Of course, it would not be possible apart from the working of the Holy Spirit. True knowledge only comes as a gift of the Spirit (Isaiah 11:2). The operation of the Holy Spirit is to guide believers to the truth (John 14:17,26; 16:13). I did not say that I disagreed with your inclusion, only that it contradicted your stance. The same could be extended to the use of any words outside of the direct citation of Scripture (in the original languages). However, this is not all that relevant to our present topic.

Lou writes:

Acts 5:29 "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, WE OUGHT TO OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MEN."

Andrew responds:

Precisely, that is why we should not follow your erroneous opinions, but rather the teachings of God in the Church founded by Christ.

Lou writes:

Who else do you think it refers to, the pope?

Andrew responds:

Your mockery will earn you no points. Catholics invoke the Holy Spirit before Scripture study. The special role of the Spirit in the teaching authority does not deny that same Spirit to the other members. The Holy Spirit is like the soul of the Church.

Lou writes:

Very straight-forward stuff here. No need to trust the magisterium to interpret the Word. God wants His children to be free, not shackled to the fallible whims of a fallible magisterium, a magisterium that DENIES the very Word that it boasts its claim to interpret.

Andrew responds:

Alas, people are angry with the Catholic Church exactly because she refuses to follow the "whims" of the day regarding abortion, euthanasia, contraception, divorce, homosexuality, and the like. Faithful to the command of Christ, the Church still proclaims the changeless truth of the Gospel. This truth sets the believer free.

Lou writes:

It is the HOLY SPIRIT that was the promised teacher/comforter to be sent from above, not the pope, bishops and very fallible magisterium. It's the HOLY SPIRIT, that's the teacher of the church, not the pope, bishops/magisterium! John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 15:26 . But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. This promise is for ALL christians, not the supposed elite catholic magisterium. If the Holy Spirit were really leading the catholic magisterium, they would not have been led to practice the paganistic heresies that they have accepted and still do to this day. They would not be led to downgrade the Bible and uplift THEIR institution! They would not have been led to commit the mass murder of other christians that disagreed with the most unholy catholic church! By their fruits ye shall know them, eh?

Andrew responds:

The very fact that we find disputation in the New Testament is illustration enough that the leadership exerted teaching authority over the community. This will remain the case for as long as the Church exists. The faithful gravitated around the apostles, and as history shows, around their successors. It is interesting that the anti-Catholic critic will posit infallibility in everyone except the Pope, as long as they agree with his personal views. I suspect that there is more than a grain of hypocrisy in such a stance.

Pushed against the wall, and the old bigoted cliches start popping out. Catholic bible study groups abound and the Mass uses Scripture from beginning to end. Nevertheless, you accuse us of minimizing its importance. You see divisions where the Catholic sees unity. What is given to the Magisterium, is PRECISELY given to all believers. The Church has not fallen into any "pagan heresies" and the reference to "mass murder" is nonsensical. Individual Catholic and Protestant believers have done bad things in the history of the world. This does not implicate the Church as the universal sacrament of salvation. You obviously know little about the Gospel of Life that the Catholic Church proclaims. The Church is holy, not because her membership are all holy, but because Christ is holy. Christ called sinners to himself and so for two thousand years, the Church has done the same. The cry is still given: "Repent and believe!"

Lou writes:

John 14:26 - As I stated above, this promise is for ALL christians, not just the catholic magisterium.

Andrew writes:

John 14:26: "But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Again, as I said, there is no opposition between the Magisterium and what is given the whole Church. Your assertion that this verse repudiates a teaching authority is unsupported. Jesus is speaking to the apostles within the context of the Last Supper. Apostolic succession has insured that the teachers of faith instituted and protected by the Holy Spirit are still with the Church in her bishops and lawful pastors.

Lou writes:

Acts 1:8 - Again, this Scripture has NOTHING TO DO with popes, prelates, bishops, catholic magisterium which didn't even exist until several centuries later.

Andrew responds:

Acts 1:8: "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."

You make many assumptions and then throw them into your argumentation. No one disputed the appointment of bishops as of divine mandate until the reformation. The intervening centuries had clouded the minds of men to the ancient claims of Christianity. We see a functioning Magisterium in the New Testament, particularly in the Council of Jerusalem. The post-apostolic Church would preserve this legacy of collaboration and teaching in the episcopate. This verse is quite significant. It gives us the inaugurating of the Church's mission. Christ's disciples are empowered to go to the entire world with his saving message. Note that it begins in Jerusalem, where salvation was accomplished. At this time, Jerusalem is where the apostles are located, making it the doctrinal focal point in the early Church. Luke understands the phrase, "to the end of the earth" as meaning Rome.

Lou writes:

Matthew 28:18-20 -Yes, the great commission, isn't it beautiful???? All christians play a part in this great commission. We all have a responsibility to teach others of the way of truth. We do this by opening up Scripture and telling the world all about the goodness and great love of Almighty God! Jesus is giving no special authority to any kind of church hierarchy to interpret His Word, the Word that the catholic church rejects as the sole authority of faith and practice. Why would He trust His Word to an institution that respects IT'S OWN COUNCILS ABOVE THE WORD OF GOD? He wouldn't and He didn't!

Andrew responds:

The context is clear, Jesus is addressing the "eleven disciples" [apostles]. This exclusion is purposeful. Like the elders over the tribes of ancient Israel, the apostles and their successors will be the shepherds of Christ's Church. To insure the fidelity of the Church is gives them something of his authority. The word for power used here is the same as that found in the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 7:13-14 where one "like a son of man" is given power and an everlasting kingdom by God. The risen Christ is claiming universal power and he is giving the apostles a universal mission. This passage provides the clearest instance of Trinitarian belief and the effect of baptism as unity with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christ promises never to abandon them or the Church. Your slam about Church councils is another unsupported statement. Gatherings of the Church's shepherds help to prevent the Church members from being misled by confused individuals. They keep us honest. Remember that the bishops with the Pope cannot invent doctrine. They can only interpret what comes down to us in the Scriptures and living traditions of the Church. Revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle.

Lou writes:

John 14:16-17 - Yes, and it's quite evident that the catholic church neither "sees him nor knows him". If the Holy Spirit indwelles the catholic institution, why then does the catholic institution do the works of their father, the devil? They do not teach men to do the will of God. They don't do it themselves. How can they teach others? The teachings of the catholic church are as contrary to the Bible as the East is from the West.

Andrew responds:

How do I respond to this? You show your true colors at last. The largest charity organization in the world, just behind the U.S. federal government, is Catholic Charities. We have men and women who give up marriage and children and homes of their own to serve God's people in ways of wondrous sacrifice and love. Some twenty-two missionaries gave their lives last year to promote the Gospel of Christ. The Church has labored to bring the nurturing and healing of Christ into the lives of people. You blaspheme the sacraments and the other works of God. You are a true kin to the Pharisees who rejected Jesus: It is by Beelzebul that he casts out devils! But the kingdom of God is one with its Savior Jesus in the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit resides in the Church and guides her. The Catholic Church still stands as a sign of contradiction in a world that has largely forgotten its Savior. The "you" being addressed in John 14 is plural. The Church is safeguarded. The business about contrariness between the East and West makes no sense to me. Go far enough West and you return to the East, and visa versa. As far as Christianity goes, the Western and Eastern Churches have differences, but Catholics and Orthodox alike believe in the seven sacraments, the episcopacy, and sacred tradition.

Lou writes:

True, God cannot lie. And the Holy Spirit is not the guardian of the falsehoods perpetrated by the catholic church. The catholic church is quite fallible and has lost their way many centuries ago. Therefore, she cannot bequeath unto her children anything better than what she herself possesses, which are the oracles of paganism and falsehood wrapped in the garb of christianity. Brings to mind "wolves in sheep's clothing". Because they "speak not according this word", therefore there is "no light" in the catholic church, only darkness, superstition, and deception.

Andrew responds:

God cannot lie. I will repeat what I said before. If the Holy Spirit is the true teacher of the apostles and the guardian of the truth in the Catholic Church, as the bible indicates, then we can be confident in the matters of faith and morals the Church offers us. The Church must be infallible if we are to be assured in not losing our way. Those who contend that the Catholic Church fell into error and adulterated the Gospel should be made aware that they insult both our Lord and the Holy Spirit. Fidelity to Christ and the Church, "the pillar and ground of truth" is urged by St. Paul, especially since even early on he could write: "For some have already strayed after Satan" (1 Timothy 5:15). This is often the case for those deafened and blinded to the Catholic Church's message. Your observation is no real retort to Catholic claims.

The obstinacy of your position is why it is so very difficult or impossible to dialogue with you or Nicholas. The only difference is that you attempt to sustain a debate while Nicholas posts spam and quick rebukes and runs.

Lou writes:

And they [the gates of hell] haven't [prevailed against the church]! The true christian church has successfuly withstood all the onslaughts of satan, from the very beginning through the instrumentalities of pagan, imperial Rome, and papal, antichristian Rome.

Andrew responds:

Historically what you say is not tenable. The Catholic (universal) Church was one. If she is not the true Church, then you must contend that Christianity disappeared to be reinvented in modern times by the likes of the Seventh-Day Adventists.

Lou writes:

Yes, ALL AUTHORITY has been given to Jesus Christ!!!! Only He is the "Chief king of kings, having plentitude of power, only He can rightly posess the title of King of Heaven, King of Earth and King of the Lower Regions. It's Jesus that's all in all. That being said and Scripture concurring, why is it that the popes have a triple crown and have the titles that belong only to Jesus????? Why is the pope called the "Holy Father"? The words "Holy Father" only occur ONCE in the whole Bible: John 17:11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Obviously the title "Holy Father" belongs to God the Father. So, what's with the pope using and accepting that title???? Don't give me that worn-out line of baloney that it's only respect. You don't respect a MAN by addressing him with the title of GOD!

Andrew responds:

Instead of dealing with the question at hand, you move to offer other questions. Remarking upon them quickly, the last two Popes did not wear the tiara that symbolizes their temporal authority. The understanding given papal titles and those given Christ are very different-- nothing is taken away from our Lord. As for the title, "Holy Father", it is NOT "baloney" to show such respect to the visible head of the Church. It does not surprise me that your response is one of defamation. Prayers at Mass call upon God as Holy Father. Actually, in distinction to the papal title, it actually reads as "Father MOST Holy". No doubt you would be against any form of spiritual fatherhood in regards the Pope or common priests.

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