|
|||||||
|
|
|
|||||
|
|
|||||||
|
|
Catholic Church is a Cult The following is a debate between Nicholas and Andrew on the matter of true religion and the cult. While the charge is leveled against Catholicism, it actually sticks against Nicholas' variation on SDA belief.
Nicholas writes:
The Definition of a Cult: (kúlt) —n. 1. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 2. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. b. Followers of such a religion or sect. 3. a. Obsessive devotion or veneration for a person, principle, or ideal, esp. when regarded as a fad. b. The object of such devotion. 4. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest. —Modifier: a cult figure. [Fr. culte < Lat. cultus, worship < p.part. of colere, to cultivate.] cul´tic (kúl´tík) adj. cul´tish adj. cult´ism n. cult´ist n. Andrew responds: Okay, the first definition would apply to any "cultus" or ritual. The second definition would apply to Nicholas' religion, even if it is a religion of ONE. The third would apply more to fans of Elvis Presley than to members of the Church. The fourth definition is in regards to aficionados of Science Fiction and other such things. Nicholas writes: Bogus? What does bogus define? Bo·gus (bö´g?s) —adj. Counterfeit; fake. [< E. bogus, a device for making counterfeit money.] (SOURCE: The American Heritage Dictionary and Electronic Thesaurus are licensed from Houghton Mifflin Company. Copyright © 1986, 1987 by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Based upon The American Heritage Dictionary. Selected Illustrations from the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia. Copyright © 1985 by Columbia University Press.) Andrew responds: Yes, this assuredly refers to the religion of ignorance and hate manufactured by Nicholas. Nicholas writes: To call a Church and or a collection of Churches a cult, the burden of proof would have to be upon the one proclaiming such a bold statement. For a church to be a cult, I would have prove thgat they are teaching "counterfit" doctrines not found in the Word of God, therefore making themselves "2. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus" A Christian church that does not do as the Word of God requires is easy evidence of being a cult to anyone with even a basic knowledge of God's Word. All one needs to do is share what the "cult" teaches with what the Bible THEY CLAIM as their book teaches. And the truth will come out as easy as Isaiah proclaimed... Isaiah 8:20, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Andrew responds: An individual as such would be hard-pressed to call any religious movement a cult unless his appreciation is shared and confirmed by others in an intelligent and cautious manner. You exude neither of these characteristics. Indeed, cults have traditionally been minority movements, suffering from syncretism and often preoccupied with eminent judgment. Having said this, there are no easy classifications. For example, is a cult still a cult when it balloons in size like the Church of Latter Day Saints? Traditionally Catholicism has considered the following to be cults: Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Pentecostals, Seventh Day Adventists, the Unification Church, and even the YMCA and the Salvation Army (although these last two organizations have toned down their religious peculiarities). Since Nicholas shares so many of the teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists, but not all, he would also fit in this category. Although an atheist might think we are ALL nuts; the verdict from traditional Christianity is that these are man-made and deceptive spiritual movements. Nicholas writes: Many billions of people realize that MANY doctrines seen in todays Churches have indeed been FIRST invented in the Roman Catholic Church many years prior. But what of these doctrines? Are they Biblical? Are they found in God's Word? I would like to transfer the burden of proof now to all those reading this post. I have "...searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. " (Acts 17:11) And I must be honest with you. I have NOT found Biblical evidence of any of the following doctrines found in the Roman Catholic Church. MANY of these doctrines can be found practiced in other churches as well. Making it easily seen as fact that the Roman Catholic Church is THEIR "Mother" and they are her "daughters" for the simple reason that they do as she would ask them to do. Again... I ask YOU at this time to email me the Scriptural facts that proclaim the following inventions of the Roman Catholic Church as Biblical doctrines spoken of by God in His Word. If you cannot, you must admit you are following that which was formed by Antichrist. Andrew responds: Nicholas gives us precisely a text that could only emerge from a cult leader or stratagem: 1. He opposes mainline religion,
in this case Catholic Christianity.
The only thing missing is the poisoned Cool Aid or a comet to die by. Nicholas writes: Colossians 2:8, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Andrew responds: He offers no proof for his claims, but always has a random Scripture verse handy. Nicholas writes: Show me the verses that proclaim these Roman Catholic Doctrines / rituals as Biblical... (This list subject to growth as research continues) Andrew responds: He seems to forget that Catholicism is NOT a "sola scriptura" Church. Catholics can find many supportive verses, but they do not live by the bible alone. His argument has more appeal for Protestants and lazy Catholics than a Catholic who truly knows his faith. I suspect that Nicholas is hoping to catch the dumb fish; intelligent believers might run home to Rome after a taste of his poison-- thank God! Without explaining how certain practices must be signs of a cult, he gives a long list and demands Scriptural verification. In other words, he has gutted Christianity of its beauty and truth and now he wants accolades for his perverse surgery. Nicholas writes: SACERDOTAL MASS, PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD, SIGN
OF THE CROSS
Andrew responds: Nicholas is a smooth operator. What he does here is a cover up for his inability to debate or dialogue regarding the points of opposition. He mentions such a multitude of topics that it leaves the reader speechless. Who has time to write upon each of these matters? Unable to respond adequately in short order, Nicholas translates silence or quick posts as a victory for him. Many of these subjects have been addressed on his message board; however, he immediately deletes or ridicules answers without ever addressing the concerns of others. He will not even amend factual mistakes. Sometimes he will become quite irate when a Catholic answers from tradition and the catechism; it is outside the perimeters within which he wants an answer. He wants everything on his terms-- however, to fully ascribe to his reductionism is already to capitulate upon an adequate response-- upon the genuine truth. Smart discussion gives Nicholas a headache. When cornered on the message boards of others, he would sometimes retreat behind an anti-intellectual attitude, slamming those who use words longer than four letters or who present arguments with which he cannot deal. Nicholas writes: The Roman Catholic Church has indeed invented numerous "doctrines" that cannot be verified in the slightest sense with Scriptures. Sure there are a couple that if one was to twist Scriptures could "appear" to be of God. But when the full context of the Scriptures are given, even a "babe in Christ" can see the truth before their eyes for it is written that "you cannot decieve the very elect" (See Mat. 24:24) If you are not in the Catholic Church but your church embraces any or all of the list of inventions above then your church is seen as a Daughter of the "Mother." Andrew responds: Ah, here Nicholas condemns almost every Christian on the planet. All the mainline traditions can claim Catholicism as the Mother Church. The two hundred million plus Orthodox believers of the East with their priests and sacraments can be included in this colossal spurning of Christianity as it has come down to us in history. This leaves Nicholas with few allies; and if he is wrong, which he is, even the good Lord is not on his side. Nicholas talks about how others twist bible verses and yet here this is precisely what he does. The elect of God do indeed see the truth. Yes, it is in the bible; however, the Living Church also proclaims it. Nicholas violates his very contention. If the bible alone sufficed, then we would not need his explanatory notes. However, he has to add his own spin to the texts so that they will reach their desired end. Catholicism uses Scripture in a contextual way-- explaining the meaning and elaborating upon the development of biblical themes through theological reflection. Nicholas forces the bible to support his given subject matter. He is guilty of the very crime about which he laments. Nicholas writes: Revelation 17:5, "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." Andrew responds: I explained in another post you deleted how this harlot and abomination was the Rome of the ancient pagans, not the Rome of Christianity and the Catholic Church. Nicholas writes: Understand, if you cannot explain the above doctrines being embraced in your Church with your Bible. Then you must admit that this verse speaks unto you this day... Andrew responds: I have tried to explain, but you delete my posts, sometimes (at your own admission) without reading them. Nicholas writes: 1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" Andrew responds: We see something of this in the return of paganism and in various New Age movements. We also see something of this betrayal of the Christian faith in people like Nicholas who seek to remake the Gospel in their own image. Nicholas writes: If you choose to ignore the simple truth it is only because you have embraced the lie for so long that you have become deaf to the Holy Spirit as did Ephraim... Hosea 4:17, "Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone." The Lord saw that Ephraim continued to ignore the truth he was sharing with him. Therefore the Lord LEFT Ephraim alone. Now that the Holy Spirit has left, the lie of Satan will be so embraced that it will appear as truth to even those that would say "Lord, Lord." Andrew responds: The Lord has promised to remain with us until the end of the age. Yours is the reinterpretation and novelty. In some ways yours is more an Old Testament religion than one that reflects the new dispensation of Christ. Nicholas writes: Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? They thought they were Christians. They appeared as Christians to many. They did many wonderful works in His name as does the Roman Catholic Church and many other Churches embracing her "doctrines of devils." But what was it Jesus said that day to those that the whole world thought were Christians... Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Andrew responds: Be prepared Nicholas, these could be the very words that you will hear from our Lord's lips. You carelessly blaspheme against the works of the Holy Spirit in his Church, making faith possible and giving efficacy to the sacraments. It is Nicholas that has called Catholic teaching the "doctrines of devils". If it is indeed the truth of Jesus then you have cast yourself in the role of the disbeliveers who sought to trick Jesus in his speech and who dismissed his words and works as that of a demon. Making no distinction about those things upon which you might concur with Christians, you seem to reject the entire Good News preached by Christ's Church. Nicholas writes: Are you sure the Church you embrace is seen by the Lord thy God as His Church? Andrew responds: This is my question to YOU. Nicholas writes: Or does the above list of "invented lies of Satan" open your eyes and make you heart pound within your chest in fear? The Holy Spirit will not continue to warn you day in and day out my friend. Sooner or later, like Ephraim, you will have heard His voice for the last time... Andrew responds: Sorry, none of this happens. Some of the things on your list are not even part of the deposit of faith. Other subjects are misunderstood by you and your few associates. I have tried to respond on individual matters, but you go in a rage and then delete the posts. Nicholas writes: 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Andrew responds: Is this what has happened to you? Is this why you will not even correct black-and-white factual matters? Is this why you show such animosity toward Catholicism? Dear God in heaven, it causes me to shudder to imagine that such might be the cloud that surrounds your heart and mind. Nicholas writes: And when you ignore Him, you will be open to the strong delusion that has drawn you away in the first place.It will appear as "of Him" when in fact is it of Satan. Keep in mind, if you CANNOT verify what your Priests, Pastors, or Preachers proclaim from the Word of God, then it is NOT of God. It is actually that simple... Andrew responds: And so you stand absolutely alone? No, our Lord established a Church to preserve us in the one true faith of Christ. Protestantism and cults have fractured themselves into thousands of communities-- each believing different things-- each claiming to possess the truth. Personal interpretation that ignores the working of the Holy Spirit among the shepherds appointed by Christ can only lead to a further corruption of the Gospel. We do not stand alone. Yes, we have the Scriptures, as understood within a horizon of tradition in a living and teaching Church. Would you utterly reject the holiness and learning of those who have dedicated themselves to the Gospel of Christ? Would you dismiss as irrelevant the charism of truth given the teachers of faith in the Catholic Church? Alas, I guess you would-- and so you trust no one (as you have said before)-- I suspect you can join no church because you have made yourself a church of one. Nicholas writes: Isaiah 8:20, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Andrew responds: Ah, Isaiah is talking about the word from God that he is proclaiming as a prophet of the Most High. The New Israel also has prophets of the living Word, Jesus Christ. These evangelizers find a singular focus in the ministers of the Catholic Church. Nicholas writes: Truth is truth Andrew responds: You would best sign off your posts with "Deceit
is deceit".
|