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Catholicism Ignorant of Salvation
Fr. Joe writes: (the discussion was passed to me when frjoe had enough) FIRST POST Catholic terminology and that used by Protestants sometimes differs regarding the question of salvation. It should also be noted that not all Protestants share the same views about election and justification, either. Since Nicholas was the first to answer your question, my response will make reference to his reply while giving the Catholic Christian perspective. Cathy, you assert that we as Catholics do not believe in the theorem "once saved, always saved." This is correct, although with an important corrective. Some Protestants use the word "salvation" the way we use the term "redemption". We would hold that having been redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, we need to embrace the Lord and his self-offering in a faith that is actualized through charity. Faith in Jesus is saving. It is possible that not all who are redeemed will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Faith and baptism is the doorway to the Christian life. Regarding those who are received into the Catholic Church from other Christian denominations, the Catholic Church does not baptize again those who already possess authentic baptism. Like the saying, "once saved, always saved," we would render it, "once baptized, always baptized". There is a genuine mystery here. Everyone predestined to glory or among the elect is destined for heaven. The providence of God cannot be circumvented. However, having said this, we do not know precisely who are among the chosen of God. Membership in the Catholic Church does not suffice as a guarantee upon heaven. Between each person and God there is a mystery of salvation that cannot be easily penetrated. Protestantism largely contends that if a person falls into serious sin, their faith was a fraud from the start. The Church does believe that a person can be in God's good graces, and yet forfeit eternal life through serious sin. Faith can sour. It is only by the grace of God that any can be ultimately saved. Nicholas, himself, admits that Christians can loose their salvation "because of a lifestyle of sin". Let me make a few comments upon his bible verses (they are quite good): Luke 9:62 - Our faith and discipleship should not be compromised. The Lord wants us entirely in his service. Revelation 3:5 - White baptismal garments symbolize our hope to be among the elect with our names in the book of life. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - Nicholas is quite right in that a man who walked with the Lord is doubly a devil if he strays away upon the path of strife and sin. Hebrews 12:15-17 - This is precisely one who leaves the community of faith to follow the lusts of the flesh and to profane what is holy. Believers are not automatically destined for heaven. They must persevere. Romans 6 - This is a chapter worthy of slow reading and deep reflection. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Nicholas states the Christian and Catholic position precisely. If a person dies in serious sin (enmity with God) then he is lost. The sins listed here are still very reflective of the times. Hebrews 10:26-27 - We cannot oppose the Gospel and still claim friendship with Christ. Hebrews 6:4-8 - Some will turn away from the Lord and will be confirmed in their rebellion. The phrase "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" is a very dramatic way of discussing the wickedness of apostasy. The Council of Trent refers to this by saying that Christ's one time death on the cross was the result of the accumulative sins of all mankind throughout all history. 1 Corinthians 10:1-13 - Nicholas is precisely right when he says that Paul is addressing believers about the sins that might bring them eternal death. Matthew 7:19-23 - A beautiful passage that makes a distinction between those who only call Jesus Lord and those who manifest it in their lives. 1 John 3:10 - Actually the reference here is to the two-fold commandment of Jesus. If one does not love God, he will not love his neighbor (brother) either. This is not to say that some might not pretend to be charitable. It is for this reason that St. Augustine (CITY OF GOD) discusses the difficulty of determining who belongs to Christ's kingdom and to that of the world. 1 Samuel 18:12 - Yes, I too would shudder to think about having the Lord depart from my life. And yet, it seems that some have departed the Lord. James 1:22 - There is some difference here between Nicholas and Catholics, although he admits "works" as the fruit of faith and salvation. Catholics would also attribute these works to the action of Christ in whom we can find all merit. Faith, for the Catholic, is not only a mental operation but also a movement of the whole person, heart and soul. We can profess and make real our faith by a life of charity. This is where we get the phrase, "Actions speak louder than words." 2 Peter 2:4 / Jude 6 - Exactly, if even angels who knew the righteousness of God can rebel, then what could possibly exclude men and women? Psalm 51:10-12 - "Restore unto me the joy of salvation." Hebrews 10:38 - A just man can displease God and forfeit his standing. Ezekiel 3:20 - Yes, this is quite blunt: "When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness." 1 Corinthians 15:2 - Our belief is in vain if we cast out the teachings of Christ. John 15:5-6 - Along with the analogy of the Mystical Body, the Vine and Branches signifies the community of faith. This profound unity in Christ can be fractured by sin. Here are some of my favorite verses with citations from the universal catechism: Romans 10:9-13 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth
the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For
the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For
there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord
over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call
upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
CCC #14 - Those who belong to Christ through faith and Baptism must confess their baptismal faith before men (cf. Mt. 10:32; Rom. 10:9). CCC #186 - From the beginning, the apostolic Church expressed and handed on her faith in brief formulae for all (cf. Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 15:3-5, etc.). CCC #449 - By attributing to Jesus the divine title "Lord," the first confessions of the Church's faith affirm from the beginning that the power, honor, and glory due to God the Father are due also to Jesus, because "he was in the form of God" (cf. Acts 2:34-36; Rm. 9:5; Titus 2:13; Rev. 5:13; Phil. 2:6), and the Father manifested the sovereignty of Jesus by raising him from the dead and exalting him into his glory (cf. Rom. 10:9; 1 Cor. 12:3; Phil. 2:9-11). CCC #2666 - But the one name that contains everything is the one that the Son of God received in his incarnation: JESUS. The divine name may not be spoken by human lips, but by assuming our humanity The Word of God hands it over to us and we can invoke it: "Jesus," "YHWH saves" (cf. Ex. 3:14; 33:19-23; Mt. 1:21). The name "Jesus" contains all: God and man and the whole economy of creation and salvation. To pray "Jesus" is to invoke him and to call him within us. His name is the only one that contains the presence it signifies. Jesus is the Risen One, and whoever invokes the name of Jesus is welcoming the Son of God who loved him and who gave himself up for him (Rom. 10:13; Acts 2:21; 3:15-16; Gal. 2:20). CCC #2738 - The revelation of prayer in the economy of salvation teaches us that faith rests on God's action in history. Our filial trust is enkindled by his supreme act: the Passion and Resurrection of his Son. Christian prayer is cooperation with his providence, his plan of love for men. CCC #2739 - For St. Paul, this trust is bold, founded on the prayer of the Spirit in us and on the faithful love of the Father who has given us his only Son (cf. Rom. 10:12-13; 8:26-39). Transformation of the praying heart is the first response to our petition. Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." KJV CCC #1226 - From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans (cf. Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15). Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household," St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family" (Acts 16:31-33). CCC #1655 - Christ chose to be born and grow up in the bosom of the holy family of Joseph and Mary. The Church is nothing other than "the family of God." From the beginning, the core of the Church was often constituted by those who had become believers "together with all [their] household" (cf. Acts 18:8). When they were converted, they desired that "their whole household" should also be saved (cf. Acts 16:31; Acts 11:14). These families who became believers were islands of Christian life in an unbelieving world. Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." KJV [Verse 10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM. RSV] CCC #161 - Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation (cf. Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:36; 6:40 st al.). "Since 'without faith it is impossible to please [God]' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'but he who endures to the end'" (cf. Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Heb. 11:6). CCC #183 - Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk. 16:16). CCC #654 - The Paschal mystery has two aspects: by his death, Christ liberates us from sin; by his Resurrection, he opens for us the way to a new life (Rom. 6:4; cf. 4:25). This new life is above all justification that reinstates us in God's grace" (cf. Eph. 2:4-5; 1 Pet. 1:3), so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." Justification consists in both victory over the death caused by sin and a new participation in grace. It brings about filial adoption so that men become Christ's brethren, as Jesus himself called his disciples after his Resurrection: "Go and tell my brethren" (Mt. 28:10; Jn. 20:17). We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his Resurrection. CCC #1814 - Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and to do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith 'work[s] through charity" (Rom. 1:17; Gal. 5:6). CCC #1815 - The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead" (Jas. 2:26): when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body. CCC #1816 - The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it. "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks." Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Mt. 10:32-33). CCC #1987 - The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism (Rom. 3:22; cf. 6:3-4). CCC #1989 - The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Mt. 4:17). Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." Nicholas writes: (addressing "frjoe" who moved the discussion from his message board to mine) Nicholas re-posted the link I lost to the CATHOLIC RESPONSE message board. One element of his response was his anti-intellectualism. Note what he says: "One more thing I noticed. You seek the approval of mankind as well. How? $20.00 words Joe. Are you preaching only to the intellect? What of those that have a lesser education Joe? Is it you seek a slap on the back for your "higher learning?" Think of this Joe. Jesus Christ the CREATOR did not use such words. He preached to the people out of love. One more thing to think on. When the Almighty wanted to herald the arrival of His Son Jesus to the World who did He send? Out of all the well educated men of the cloth WHO did He send Joe? That's right, some grasshopper and honey eating man living in the wild by the name of John the Baptist." Fr. Joe writes: Does he want me to tie half my brain behind my back? Does he want me to play stupid? The matter we were discussing is precisely one that needs clear thinking, with angry and bigoted rhetoric aside. I tried to offer an honest and accurate rendering of what Catholicism teaches. My vocabulary may be larger or smaller than that possessed by some folks-- so what? Nicholas should not feel threatened by good answers to his questions and objections. Feelings are important, but nothing I said could be interpreted as a violation of love. Where he gets his notion, I cannot fathom a guess. And yes, the good Lord did call forth John the Baptist to make ready the way of the Lord. But, besides having a peculiar diet, how can we conclude that he was not well educated or intelligent? What about the physician, Luke, was he not a learned and well-versed man? He gave us a Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles? What about Paul, was he not a brilliant Pharisee? Sorry Nicholas, intelligence is not opposed to love of to holiness. You remind me of an anti-Catholic woman who attacks Catholics with isolated bible texts while dismissing the attempts of knowledgeable authorities who appeal to the original languages and their proper meanings. She exclaimed, "The King James Version English was good enough for Jesus and so it is good enough for me." Ignorance fuels bigotry and distrust. May you respect the gifts of others and recognize that truth fears nothing. PEACE,
Fr. Joe sent the following reply to Cathy (hehe): Dear Cathy, Final justification would be the same as the salvation of the elect; those predestined by God's grace for eternal life. Our abiding hope as Catholic Christians is precisely to be numbered among the chosen saints of heaven. Our death makes our orientation (away or toward God) permanent. Can we go in and out of righteousness before God? While certain Lutherans and Calvinists (and their sympathizers) would say NO, Catholics believe that a saving and authentic faith in Jesus can sour. Thus the proximate justification or salvation or eternal life that enters our souls by grace can be forfeited. Mortal sin inflicts such a punishment upon the person. One qualification I would like to make is this. You write: "'Justification,' on the other hand, is what God declares us to be. It is possible for God to call us just due to Jesus' redeeming actions on the cross." Actually, it is more than this. The reduction of final justification to a juridical declaration was the notion of Martin Luther, not that of the Catholic Church. Faith lived out in charity and obedience, along with baptism, does not merely evoke a divine declaration of our righteousness, we are MADE righteous. We are changed and made into a new creation. We are not what we were before. The supernatural perfects the natural. Along with this our basic relationship to God, to one another, and to the world, is altered. We are lifted to the dignity of sons and daughters to our almighty Father. Hope this helps,
>email to C. Andrews: I'll let you talk to this guy if you want to waste time. Enclosed are more citations you can use. Be good! Andrew responds: SECOND POST Nicholas, the questions you ask are good, and the answers constitute something of the difference between certain Protestant churches, although by no means all, and the Catholic Church. It is unfortunate that your rhetorical style escalates quickly from any harmony in the symphony of faith to the dissonant use of words that actively seek out division and incite combativeness. Nicholas writes: How is it possible for an infant to act on the conditions your own catechisms warrants for Baptisim? How can an infant "repent?" Your church declares that we "must confess their baptismal faith before men" and I agree 100% here with you as well. However, how is it possible for an infant to do an act such as this? Is this saying that if one person in the house states their belief in Jesus they may be Baptised as well as ALL the house members? No it is not. The blanket question is "what must I DO" and the answer is given rather plainly given. Joe, not only is it impossible for an infant to ASK a question, they cannot understand the ANSWER either. Is not salvation a personal walk between every man and Jesus Christ? How can anyone make the walk for us? How can anyone make the decision to walk for us as well? How can anyone baptise an infant when the infant cannot make ANY decision whatsoever? Andrew responds: THIRD POST The universal catechism speaks about infant baptism in several paragraphs: CCC #1231 - Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacrament is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a POST-BAPTISMAL CATECHUMENATE. Not only is there a need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of baptismal grace in personal growth. The catechism has its proper place here. The late Patrick Cardinal O'Boyle of Washington, D.C. told a congregation one time that as he looked back upon his long life, the most important day was the day of his baptism. This surprised people. Many thought he would say it was the day he was ordained a priest or consecrated a bishop or given the red hat. How could it be, his nice Irish mother had him baptized as a baby? He told everyone, that while he could not recall it, he had reflected in prayer upon its meaning. Not only was he cleansed of the stain of Adam, but also he was transformed from a creature of God to an adopted son of our heavenly Father. Sanctifying grace filled his soul, making him a temple of the Holy Spirit, and making him an heir to heaven. He praised God for his parents who dedicated him to the Lord and then provided a godly home to grow and to know the Lord. There is something of his appreciation in this section of the catechism. Can an infant repent and believe? Of course not, at least not directly. It should be noted that if a person reaches the age of reason, then they could only be initiated after instruction, repentance from sin, and the free decision to embrace the holy faith in Jesus. That to which Nicholas is taking exception is children baptized from birth to about six or seven years of age. The Church would contend that the same elements found in adult faith must be exercised, although their order may be altered. Thus, baptized children are taught their religion and prepared for first penance and communion. Between seventh and ninth grade, they usually receive confirmation. The sacramental life as well as various ceremonials reinforces and brings to consciousness our baptismal identity. The Easter vigil includes a rite of sprinkling and the renewal of baptismal promises. Of course, every Sunday celebration includes a recitation of the profession of faith. Signing ourselves with the water of the church fonts is still another reminder of our baptismal dignity and faith. The gulf that separates Nicholas and Catholics is really our conception of the Church and the participatory role of Christians (parents, godparents, and others) in the personal salvation history of loved ones. We do not believe that anyone comes to God alone. Nicholas appreciates something of this when he speaks of baptism as a public celebration. He would disagree about the intercessory level that the Church exerts in the lives of her members. Ultimately Catholics believe that there is a profound unity in the Mystical Body of the Church that allows adults given guardianship over a child to renounce sin and to profess the faith on the behalf of the child. CCC #1251 - Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them. Of course, if there is no intent on the part of the parents to raise the child in the faith of Christ, then baptism is postponed until there is a change in the status of the parents or the child is mature enough to make his own decision and carry it out. Yes, salvation is a personal walk between every man and Jesus Christ. It is also true that ultimately no one can make the walk for us. But, this does not mean that no one can walk with us-- this is where infant baptism comes in. CCC #1252 - The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized" (Acts 16:15, 33; 18:18; 1 Corinthians 1:16). This testimony from people living in biblical times or the period close to the Christ-event and the compilation and writing of the Scriptures is very important. They most of all would be mindful of the practices left them by the apostles. CCC #1282 - Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that DOES NOT PRESUPPOSE ANY HUMAN MERIT; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom. CCC #1250 - Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have a need of the new birth in baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought to the realm of the freedom of the children of god, to which all men are called (cf. Col. 1:12-14). The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth. We must also put ourselves in the shoes of parents in past generations. Before antibiotics and modern medical science, infant mortality was quite high. Parents wanted to make sure that their children were baptized in case the worse should happen. Nicholas writes: [Here is where your post becomes a negative polemic.] Baptism is not something to be taken lightly. It is not just some "ritual". It is a VERY graphic public proclamation of a life changing repentative faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of ones life. To diminish it to some ritual that is "snuck" in without the knowledge of the one receiving is nothing more than a demonic form of "mind control". For example, the infant comes to adulthood and "entertains" the though of baptism later in life because of the simple will of God gently tugging on the heart. However, after "realizing" that this "ritual" took place already as an infant, they may very well walk on without giving it a second thought. Therefore NEVER making that public profession of faith in Jesus. Plus, the sacrament of "Confirmation" is then null and voided as well. How? "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE the GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST." Acts 2:38 Seems rather plain what the order of events are here. REPENT... be BAPTIZED... and then RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now it is true that all Catholic children are baptized at infancy, this is most definitely before confirmation. However, how is it possible for the Catholic receiving confirmation to ever gone into repentance before baptism? An infant cannot do this, plain and simple. It is impossible to effectively baptize a person without their consent, let alone their knowledge. If you are a Catholic, let me ask you this... "Do you remember being baptized?" I don't remember, nor do I recall repenting before being baptized. So how is it possible for me to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost at confirmation when I didn't follow the method God's Word stipulates as the order of events needed for reception? Matthew 3:7,8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: John wasn't going to allow them to sneak in and be baptized without meeting the necessary conditions God had set up in advance for baptism. WHY SHOULD YOU? Andrew responds: FOURTH POST Education in the faith, teaching bible stories, and helping with prayers is not "mind control". The Church grants us special seasons for penance and we are urged to constantly seek repentance and conversion. As I said before, Catholics make a public profession of faith every time they come together for Sunday worship. Nicholas makes a great deal about the apparent biblical order of repentance, baptism, and confirmation (receiving the Holy Spirit). I doubt he would give much significance to renewals of baptismal promises, although I might be wrong. Such a renewal is a part of the confirmation ceremony, as is the rejection of Satan and all his empty promises. Before the confirmation itself, we urge and give opportunity for the young people to repent of any sinfulness and to implore God's mercy. It seems to me as a priest and as a pastor of souls, that we have made every effort to fulfill the Lord's commands. Part of the problem may be the difference in our understanding of confirmation. I am not sure Nicholas would acknowledge it as a sacrament or divine mystery at all. Eastern rite Catholic churches, along with the Orthodox churches, baptize, confirm, and give first Eucharist to children. This is the more ancient pattern than that in Catholic Churches of the West. Baptism and confirmation were linked one time as a single sacrament. Confirmation was the final anointing of initiation. We are anointed with chrism oil into CHRIST (the Anointed One). As time went by, Western bishops reserved the confirmation anointing to themselves. As a happy accident, or rather, the providence of God, this allows the person to personally repent of sin and to confess his faith in Jesus as part of the sacrament of confirmation, and the closure of the rites of initiation. One priest suggested that it is not so much the person, but the baptism that is confirmed. CCC #1285 - Baptism, the Eucharist, and the
sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian
initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained
to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is
necessary for the completion of baptismal grace. For "by the sacrament
of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church
and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence
they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread
and defend the faith by word and deed."
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