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False Christs of Catholic Priesthood The following is a debate between Lou and Andrew on the matter of priestly identity in the Catholic Church. Lou repeats the old simplistic arguments of the past.
Lou writes: (Graphic not posted here, illustrating the priest and Christ as the same.) "The priest is, indeed, another Christ, or in some way, he is himself a continuation of Christ." (Pope Pius XI, Encylical on the Priesthood) Roman Catholicism does, indeed, teach that the priest functions on earth as another Jesus Christ, as this quote from Pope Pius XI and as this picture, in the messgae title, shows. Andrew responds: I will grant that, if properly understood. Actually, the picture is accurate-- just misinterpreted somewhat. Every priest is an "alter christus". Lou writes: This revelation is damning, because the Bible forbids us to follow "another Christ"! Take a close look at this picture. In the very top, we see Jesus Christ in the robes of the Roman Catholic priest, making intercession to God the Father, Who is shown within the Pagan equilateral triangle. Then, through a cloud, we see a real human Roman Catholic priest, receiving the intercession passing through Jesus Christ, which he can then pass through to the parishioners below. Andrew responds: The Scriptural prohibition about following another Christ has to do with either dividing our loyalties and/or looking to a false Messiah. The understanding of a Catholic priest as "another Christ" has to do with his sacramental role. He is an "alter Christus", not in competition with our Lord, but a sharer in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. Jesus forgives sins. Jesus celebrates every Eucharist. The ordained man is configured to Christ in such a fashion that our Lord is made present at the altar during Mass. Who says Mass? Is it Fr. Bill or Fr. Frank? Is it even Bishop Andrew? No, Jesus says every Mass. Intercession is made for sins. Reparation is offered. The triangle in the picture is simply an artist's depiction the Trinitarian godhead. Lou writes: This picture does a lot more than just depict Catholic belief that the priest is working on their behalf, receiving power and authority directly from Jesus; the picture depicts the Catholic teaching that the human priest is "another Christ", as the writing to the left so clearly illustrates. Andrew responds: Okay. Lou writes: Jesus Himself warned us, in Matthew 24, that, at the End of the Age, people would see many instances where "another Christ" would appear, claiming that he is a Christ. Listen. "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." [Matthew 24:4-5] Andrew responds: These other Christ's are those who usurp the teachings of Christ as proclaimed in his holy Church. Coincidentally, look at the name Nicholas. I have been informed that the second half of the name is a variation on the name Christ = Cholas. Hum, interesting. Actually, it is more silliness in imitation of the stuff that pollutes this site. The Church has taught the same message about priestly identity for centuries and centuries, it is hardly a new notion on the scene. What is new are the vast throng of dissenters and protestors to true faith. You and Nicholas speak in Christ's name but you hold teachings that are not Christian. The one who would call himself a CHRISTIAN had best be sure that he teaches what Christ teaches. Otherwise, he bears our Lord's name to no good purpose. Lou writes: Notice that Jesus immediately stated that such claims would be great deception, and would be successful in deceiving "many". Would you consider the Roman Catholic faithful, one billion strong, to constitute "many"? Further, I would consider the many thousands of Roman Catholic priests as "many" christs. Andrew responds: As I said before, dissenters, secularists, and others outnumber true Catholic Christians. What you offer here is idle and scurrilous speculation-- not truth. Lou writes: Thus, in both sides of this coin, this Roman Catholic teaching qualifies as fulfillment of Jesus' End Times prophecy. let's examine another instance in which Jesus Christ warned that many "Christs" would appear. " Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not." {Matthew 24:23-26] Andrew responds: Yes, thank the good Lord that he warned us about such as YOU. Lou writes: Jesus was warning here that, at the End of the Age, many false Christs would arise, claiming to be Jesus Christ. This false teaching is exactly what this Roman Catholic doctrine claims! Further, Jesus is saying that these many false Christs would appear in many places, and would show great power and claim great authority. Again, this is exactly what this Roman Catholic teaching accomplishes. Finally, Jesus warned that these false Christs would appear in a variety of places, from the open expanses of the desert to the closed confines of a secret room. We are told that, wherever we hear of a person claiming to be Christ, we are to ignore them, and believe them not! Andrew responds: Oh, please . . . you put my brain to sleep. Our Lord told the Church to go to all nations, making disciples to him. We have done that. You would condemn Catholics for their fidelity to God and the fruits of the Spirit. You are right that false Christs have appeared in many places, including at the PRESENTS OF GOD web site. Lou writes: Notice, also, that these false Christs will be very convincing. They will persuade many people of the validity of their claim to be another Christ. Listen to Jesus' exact words: " if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". If the Holy Spirit were not working in the hearts and minds of the true believers, even they would be deceived. The corollary to this warning is that all of the unbelievers would be deceived by these false Christs. Andrew responds: Interesting! " . . . if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Hum, both you and Nicholas are former Catholics, right? I guess the minds of some have been deceived. Lou writes: This warning should be sounding loudly and clearly in the spiritual ears of all devout Roman Catholics as they consider this abominable teaching that priests are "another Christ". The very wording of this teaching should cause you to understand this truth. Finally, one needs to consider that Jesus Christ, Messiah, is synonymous with His Word. Listen to the words of John the Apostle: " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." [John 1:1] Here we read the Truth that the Word of God is God Himself! This teaching is quite startling and should cause anyone to take great care in how he or she handles the Word of God. In past articles, we have written much about the many warnings God gives against "adding to" or "taking from" God's Word. Now, we know why God was so adamant against tampering with His Word; His Word IS God!! Peace! Andrew responds: Priesthood and Eucharist are not abominable teachings. Rather, they are substantial reminders that God has not abandoned us. Christ is still ministering to his holy people. Yes, Jesus is the WORD. But, I would suggest that he is not expressed in your words. During the days of the old Latin Mass, the liturgy always concluded with the prologue of John. The Catholic Church believes completely that in the beginning there was the Word, that the Word was with God, indeed that the Word was God. Additional Response from Andrew: Anti-Catholics argue that the Vatican and her clergy rob Christ of his divine prerogative to forgive sins and to offer redemption. Again, the critic here fails to appreciate the participatory role given the Apostles and their successors in extending the ministry of Christ. Christ, himself, tells Peter that he will be made the rock of his Church and that he will be given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He is given the authority to loosen and to bind regarding sin. Priests do not steal Christ's attributes, but rather make them manifest and amplify them to a world still very much in need of healing and hope. Ultimately, the work is Christ's. There is no contradiction in this matter. Despite a vague mention of 1 Timothy 3, and no doubt the baptismal priesthood all believers share; the record in the epistles and Acts is ample evidence that there were special leaders (bishops, priests, and deacons) established by Christ to help govern the Church and to minister the mysteries of grace. Indeed, unless he has an obscure text of 1 Timothy 3, then this too affirms the role of bishops by listing their high attributes. It says that the bishop "must manage his own household well, . . . for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he care for God's church?" (verses 4-5). These Scriptures Affirm & Do Not Disprove Church Teaching: Matthew 9:2 - "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." KJV This is one of the many stories in which Jesus offered forgiveness and healing. It says nothing about excluding his shepherds from elements of his ministry. Indeed, it would make no sense for Jesus to offer comfort and healing to a few and then to deprive the countless millions since from his mercy. The Church and her priests, albeit through the sacraments, continue the work of Christ. Quoting the Scriptures, the ritual for anointing the sick has the following text: "Lord God, you have said to us through your apostle James: 'Are there people sick among you? Let them send for the priests of the Church, and let the priests pray over them anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick persons, and the Lord will raise them up. If they have committed any sins, their sins will be forgiven them.'" 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." KJV CCC #827 - "Christ, 'holy, innocent, and undefiled,'
knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The
Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always
in need of purification, follows
CCC #1847 - "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us." To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all righteousness" (1 Jn. 1:8-9). 1 Peter 2:5 - "Yes also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." KJV CCC #756 - "Often too, the Church is called the building of God. The Lord compared himself to the stone which the builders rejected, but which was made into the corner-stone. On this foundation the Church is built by the apostles and from it the Church receives solidarity and unity. This edifice has many names to describe it: the house of God in which his family dwells; the household of God in the Spirit; the dwelling-place of God among men; and, especially, the holy temple. This temple, symbolized in places of worship built out of stone, is praised by the Fathers and, not without reason, is compared in the liturgy to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. As living stones we here on earth are built into it. It is this holy city that is seen by John as it comes down out of heaven from God when the world is made anew, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband" (cf. 1 Cor. 3:9; Mt. 21:42; Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7; Ps. 118:22; 1 Cor. 3:11; 1 Tim 3:15; Eph 2:19-22; Rev. 21:3; 1 Pet. 2:5; Rev. 21:1-2). CCC #901 - "Hence the laity, dedicated as they are to Christ and anointed by the Holy Spirit, are marvelously called and prepared so that even richer fruits of the Spirit may be produced in them. For all their works, prayers, and apostolic undertakings, family and married life, daily work, relaxation of mind and body, if they are accomplished in the Spirit -- indeed even the hardships of life if patiently born -- all these spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. In the celebration of the Eucharist these may most fittingly be offered to the Father along with the body of the Lord. And so, worshipping everywhere by their holy actions, the laity consecrate the world itself to God, everywhere offering worship by the holiness of their lives" (cf. 1 Pet. 2:5). CCC #1268 - The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood" (1 Pet. 2:5). By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2:9). Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers. CCC #1546 - Christ, high priest and unique
mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"
(Rev. 1:6; cf. Rev. 5:9-10; 1 Pet. 2:5,9). The whole community of believers
is, as such, priestly. The faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood
through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's
mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism
and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood."
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