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Bible vs. Church Authority The following is a debate between Nicholas and Andrew on the Church, Scripture and Tradition. Nicholas often resorted to deleting CATHOLIC posts, even though he himself pretended not to be afraid of debate.
Andrew responds:
FIRST POST Tradition Supplements the Scriptures John 20:30-31: Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. John 21:25: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. On one hand the Church is told that the Holy Spirit will teach the Church all things, and yet there is the admission in Scripture itself that it does not include everything. The early Church practices and extends its faith with only a partially written account of Christ's life and teachings. The living tradition of the Church does not replace the biblical testimony, but supplements and helps to interpret it. Commanded to Keep Traditions 2 Thessalonians 2:15: So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Timothy 2:2: . . . and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. If these statements did not appear in the bible, I would suspect that "bible alone" believers would immediately pounce upon them as distortions of the truth by Catholics. Most ministers actually avoid such passages, perhaps with the hope that if ignored, they might go away? The Catholic Church is the most literal bible Church of all in that she makes the entirety of Scripture her own. We keep alive the faith and traditions which come down to us from the Apostolic Church. A number of years passed before the final composition of the New Testament. Some say the Book of Revelation may have been finished as late as 100 AD. And yet, there is a letter from Clement, the bishop of Rome, in other words, a Catholic Pope, written to the Corinthians in 93 AD. The Catholic Church was teaching and preaching even before the bible was completed. This is a historical fact! The first complete compilation of the New Testament was not officially completed until the Council of Constantinople in 397 AD. This runs smack in the face of those who claim only private interpretation of the Scriptures. The bible, from beginning to end, is the Catholic Church's BOOK. It was only after the persecution of Christians and the peace given by Constantine in 313 AD that the Church could share the inspired documents preserved by various congregations. The bishops would then have to authenticate the writings, deeming which ones were doctrinally sound and also inspired. If this decision was deemed infallible and such is implicit by our acceptance of the New Testament books, then this Church is still infallible. If not, then the New Testament can be disregarded as inconclusive. Non-Catholics are unable to go back to review the work of Catholic scholars and bishops since the source documents have long returned to dust. Catholic monks throughout the centuries copied the original papyruses. Protestants must, on this account, TRUST that the Catholic Church worked under divine inspiration. If this is the case for the past, then why not for the present? This also casts dispersion on any theory of private bible-alone interpretation. Before the invention of the printing press (1440 AD), bibles were scarce and the cost was prohibitive. Most people were not literate. The Church made recourse to ritual and art to get across the Scriptural message. Any bible alone notion would have excluded the majority from any real comprehension of the truths of Christ and our stories of faith. This would have been ludicrous! To insure that the bible was not lost, they were often secured in churches so that the unscrupulous would not steal or destroy them. Faith-filled religious spent their whole lives copying the Scriptures by hand. Such care and self-sacrificing devotion is a sure rebuttal against those bigots who insist that Catholics tried to destroy the bible. SECOND POST Institution of the Catholic Church by Christ Matthew 28:18-20: And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Unlike the Protestant churches, the Catholic Church traces its history all the way back to Christ, himself. Martin Luther, an excommunicated Catholic priest, established his breakaway church in 1517. Thousands of Protestant sects have formed subsequently from his move of rebellion. THIRD POST Images: Statues and Pictures Exodus 25:18: And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Numbers 21:8-9: And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." John 3:14: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 1 Kings 6:29: He carved all the walls in the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. (Also verses 32 and 35). The prohibition against images was never absolute. Further, there is a new economy of images due to the incarnation. Jesus is the revelation of the Father. Our very humanity becomes reflective of God. The Scriptures show that God often used images to deepen religious commitment and understanding. The prohibition against "graven images" applies to idolatry, the sin of giving the adoration reserved to God alone to some mere thing. It is peculiar that some critics will oppose the Church's use of sacred art and yet they often have trophies, statuary, toy dolls, photographs, and paintings in their homes. Images that inspire faith and remind us of particularly holy and courageous members of our faith are no more wrong than such pictures of family and friends in our homes. LATER RESPONSES: Nicholas writes: The choice is yours. You can believe the SCRIPTURES I share, (In context) or you can believe the TRADITIONS that Cathy and Andrew preach as well as the OUT of context Scriptures. I challenge EVERYONE reading these posts to do as the Noble's of Berea did... Andrew responds: Unless you are going to change your policy and allow my posts to remain, it will be hard for anyone to read them. Further, it is not my policy to offer Scripture in any way that nullifies the contextual meaning. I called you to task for doing so in on of my posts and you quickly removed it. Do you remember? Nicholas writes: Acts 17:10-11, "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and ***searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.***" Andrew responds: Yes, Nicholas, the Scriptures have a most
significant value in our appreciation of divine truth. Of course,
in this situation, the Scriptures only included the
Remember that Christianity is not a book-religion like Islam-- Romans 10:17: So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ. Mark 16:20: And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen. Mark 16:15: And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." There is nothing here about a book-religion or any kind of bible-alone church. Rather, we see what the Catholic Church has done for two thousand years. Nicholas writes:
Andrew responds: Yes, I would very much encourage such an approach. It would be a refreshing change of pace from the snippets so often offered by Fundamentalists as proofs for their claims. I would suggest that you use this method of biblical terrorism. The misuse of the Scriptures, twisting verses
into contrived apologetical schemes for purposes of refutation or to shore
up dubious opinions is increasingly common.
Catholics are reminded to be careful in their study of the bible, acknowledging
that there is an authentic interpreter (the Church) and that we have
a living tradition that includes the writings
and homilies of the ancient fathers and the saints. Catholics tend to interpret
passages in a contextual manner that does
no injustice to the Word of God. Certain fundamentalists will pick-and-choose
verses with little consideration about what they are actually
Bible study, particularly if it is badly organized,
can become a similar sharing in ignorance. If the leader of the group is
strong and the other members consist
If they are somewhat stronger of character,
then there is a tendency to make bible interpretation rather relativistic.
"I think that passage means this, you
Many of the modern Christian denominations
and cults claim the bible as their own and yet disagree about what it teaches.
One television evangelist claims
The Gospel of Matthew, according to Irenaeus, was written while Peter and Paul preached in Rome (61 to 67 AD). Other authorities place it after the Gospel of Mark, around 70 AD when the temple was destroyed. The other gospels, Acts, Revelation, and the assorted letters were complete by 100 AD. Many other books were considered by some to be inspired. Persecution and distance kept the Church from effectively gathering the books and judging their canonical status. The peace of Constantine (313 AD) gave the Church the opportunity to begin doing this. Scrupulous study, prayer, and dialogue (all guided by the Holy Spirit) led the bishops to affirm a canon of approved biblical books by 397 AD. The New Testament, as we know it, had come into existence. Christ gave something of his authority to the Catholic Church so that people might truly understand the Word of God and not succumb to the empty rattle of men. The living tradition of the Church with all its past testimony of the fathers and the saints, its early art and catacomb inscriptions, its various regulations, etc. would create an umbrella of understanding around the Scriptures. Forsaking the Church, Protestant reformers and their churches would cast aside centuries of authentic Christian life and teaching to find their own way. What they forgot was that Jesus was the Way and the Truth and the Life. Jesus was still very much with his Catholic Church. Some have lost their way entirely and can no longer b called Christian. Others still look to Jesus with love but only possess partial truth and much that is erroneous. Some of these find their way back home, as with notable converts to Catholicism in recent years. Nicholas writes: The Roman Catholic Church is InFamous for
doing this as are many protestant churches. Cathy and Andrew are Roman
Catholics and you will see that they
Andrew responds: You have such a sweet way with your words--
NOT. Actually, I told you before, if you read the post prior to its
deletion, that I am not angry with you, only
Nicholas writes: Revelation 18:1-4 states plainly that God's Children can be found in every Church in the last days. Andrew responds: Actually, Pope John Paul II said something similar not too long ago. Remarking about dissenting Catholics, more pagan than Christian, he ruminated that sometimes we have more in common with our brothers and sisters in other Christian denominations. This does not nullify the unique claims of Catholicism as an institution, but points to the faith and holiness of individuals. Nicholas writes: Why else would He be CALLING THEM OUT of these Churches? Andrew responds: Protestant ministers are coming into the Catholic Church in increasing numbers. Maybe you are "right" in a way you would never acknowledge? Seven thousand converts a day are coming to Catholicism in Africa! Nicholas writes: If you do choose to read Cathy and Andrews
posts, VERIFY VERIFY VERIFY their verses (If they use any) with what the
Bible is actually saying, and you will
Andrew responds: "If you do choose?" Ah, but will my posts remain long enough for anyone to read them? When I sought to verify your Scriptures and even made a correction of your serious error in confusing limbo with purgatory-- you immediately deleted the post. It was a factual matter, not open to debate. Open any basic religion text and you would find the definitions. Instead, you purposely decided to promulgate what was clearly false. 1 + 1 = 2, no matter how much you try to make it 3. Nicholas writes: I am sick and tired of all the VILE HATRED
and STRIFE STIRRING that is being posted by Cathy and Andrew. I have decided
to IGNORE them from this day
Andrew responds: Excuse me? I am the injured party here,
and yet I hold not malign thoughts for you. There is no "vile hatred"
and you yourself, by the nature of an
Nicholas writes: Biblical Reasons being... 1Timothy 6:3-5 If any man teach otherwise,
and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus
Christ, and to the doctrine which is
Andrew responds: Don't you see yourself in these words? Every man of God was daily reflect upon his life and ministry according to the terms that Paul gives Timothy. I came to your site, not to engage in vain or idle verbal disputes, but as a fellow believer who wanted to assist you away from a message of hate that is of your own manufacture. Your web page and bulletin board, by definition, are set up for "strife, railings, and evil surmisings"-- about the Eschaton and everything else. Your own testimony about the rejection of your Catholicism and your pastors is presented in such a way that immediately denotes pride in yourself and disrespect to them. Note the CONTEXT, and verse six that you ignore
here: "There is great gain in godliness with contentment."
There is nothing of peace or of poverty in spirit
The Catholic approach to Scripture, by comparison,
fosters unity in Christ. In comparison to the fragmentation evident
in Protestantism, the uniformity in
Yours is the real heresy. Galatians 1:8-9: But even if we, or an angel
from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached
to you, let him be accursed. As
These are pretty serious words. Paul is speaking
about the early oral tradition of the Church. Paul says that he offers
what he himself has received. He
2 Timothy 4:3: For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. Titus 3:10: As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Romans 16:17: I appeal to you, brethren, to
take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition
to the doctrine which you have been
2 John 10:11: If any one comes to you and
does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give
him any greeting; for he who greets him
This is precisely what happened. Heresies
afflicted the Church, almost from the very beginning. Nevertheless, under
the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the
Nicholas writes: I withdraw myself from Cathy and Andrew
because the Word of God is NOT a collection of arguments, it is a collection
of FACTS! If anyone wants BIBLICAL
Andrew responds: I am afraid that you have already done the
dirty work of twisting Scripture to fit your own opinions. It may
be that you did so in ignorance to the truth. And
As for the straight dope on Scripture, there is no way for human beings to avoid interpretation. Unless there is an assured and protected authority for this, the fracturing of Protestantism will only continue and grow worse. Nicholas writes: PLUS, I will NEVER give my opinion on a verse. I will share EASY to understand verses that answer plainly, and for those verses that AREN'T too easy to understand, I will post the verses that explain those verses. Jesus taught this way, and He taught US to teach this way. You will notice that STILL some people will proclaim it is "my opinion." These people have allowed their hatred of God's TRUTH to cloud them to such an extent that they refuse to see that they are actually having a problem believing God's Word, and their anger causes them to lash out at me and proclaim, "It's my opinion / interpretation" when in fact. I DIDN'T WRITE THOSE VERSES, GOD DID. They just can't see it. Why? Andrew responds: Why? It is because, dear Nicholas, men
of good faith might not see the same meanings in Scripture. Without
the teaching Church, and the inspiration of the
The Bible is NOT self-interpretive. 2 Peter 1:20: First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation. 2 Peter 3:16: . . . speaking of this as he
does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand,
which the ignorant and unstable twist to
Acts 8:30-31: So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless some one guides me?" And he invited Philip to come and sit with him. These three passages make it evident that
the bible cannot explain itself. It is the inspired book of the Church
and the Church is its authorized interpreter.
The Pope and Bishops are the official interpreters of Scripture. Luke 10:16: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death (gates of hell) shall not prevail against it." Malachi 2:7: For the lips of a priest should
guard knowledge, and men should seek instruction (law) from his mouth,
for he is the messenger of the Lord of
The Holy Spirit has functioned as the very
soul of the Catholic Church, insuring the efficacy of the sacraments and
the truthfulness of official interpretations of
Nicholas writes: 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12, "And with all
deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received
not the love of the truth, that they
Andrew responds: Notice, you give us a biblical passage. Nicholas writes: Because they LOVE SIN over and above God Almighty and His truth. And since they have made that DECISION, the Almighty allows them to have what they TRULY desires from their hearts... Andrew responds: Notice, now you give us your opinion and interpretation. Okay? This is a method many of us use. What confuses me is that you stated earlier that you would not. Whenever we have to discuss Scripture, it implies that Scripture is not entirely self-explanative. Note that you purposely ignore certain elements
of the text that plays into the hands of Catholics. Catholics receive
this text just as it was first offered to
I say all this, not to ridicule what you believe,
but to make the case for Catholic Christianity. What does stand to
bring you embarrassment is your failure to
Nicholas writes: Matthew 6:21, "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Andrew responds: This is one of my favorite verses. If Christ is our treasure then nothing and no one can take him away from us. Nicholas writes: Truth is truth, and it is best to stand with truth because truth can ALWAYS expose the LIES and the LIARS as easy as a light bulb dispells the darkness in a room instantly. Andrew responds: What does this have to do with Matthew 6:21?
I would not take the analogy of the light bulb too far. Dim bulbs
tend to leave many shadows in rooms. I
Nicholas writes: I forgive you Cathy and Andrew for all the insults and open lies you have posted about me and my message. As for the lies you have spoken against God. I am unable to help you there. But I WILL pray for you two, and I hope that His Holy Spirit opens your eyes before the Plagues of Revelation begin to fall. ...And by the way people, there ARE signs that the plagues are being held back this very day so that the Almighty can "SEAL" His Child upon their forheads as Revelation states. ALL 7 can now be easily identified as to HOW they will occur. Plagues # 1, 2, 3, & 4 are at this very moment "starting to slip" and it can be seen in the BOILS on men and billions of fish, BLOOD RED TIDES, and SOLAR TORNADOES that Science has already identified as CURRENT EVENTS... Andrew responds: I will not get into all this. I believe the Lord is coming and that we should always be prepared. That is enough for me. Like the wise virgins, I stay alert and keep my lamp burning. I am sorry that you think I am a liar and a blasphemer against God. Such a charge makes your suggestion of forgiveness sound feigned and hollow. Look at what you write. You have already judged Cathy and myself. Listen to what you say. You come close to making yourself God. I will also pray for you; not simply that
you will see the fullness of truth, but that you will know the love of
God. Without it, remember, we are only noisy gongs.
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