Vatican's Blasphemous Intentions    

The following is a debate between Nicholas and Andrew on the Vatican's Intentions.  I would retitle the whole business, "Nicholas' Intentions".   

Nicholas writes: 

The Vatican's Intentions Revealed  

The Roman Catholic Church has been the center of many things throughout the centuries. Royalty used to consult priests and clergy as how to run their kingdoms. The Church has accumulated great wealth through both tithes and extortion. It has gained prestige worldwide. The church is probably the most wealthy and most influential organization on the face of the planet with almost 1 billion members. The current pope, John Paul II is literally treated as a "god." Is this mere coincidence? Or is it merely a façade? What is the true nature of the Roman Catholic Church?  

Andrew responds:  

Is it surprising to you that during times when religious faith was at the center of peoples' lives that the Church Christ founded would be important?  What would you prefer, a Church that is impotent and a Gospel that has no meaning in society?  Nicholas, you say silly things and open yourself to all sorts of ridicule-- self-inflicted.  Yes, the Church grew materially and spiritually-- however, one allows the other to be more effective.  The Church belongs to God and to his people.  If you are saying that donations offered to continue 
charity and the ministry of our Lord constitute "extortion" then you are literally saying that almighty God is a blackmailer.  Yes, the Church has about a billion members; however, I would suggest that Bill Gates and a good number of his less affluent friends would well outpace the Church's wealth.  I have talked about this before, however, you rarely read anyone's posts but your own-- at your own admission.  

Let me cite a previous post, which you cowardly deleted from your own board:  

Nicholas is no Catholic. He might have pretended to be one, but it was in name only. He condemns Catholicism as no Church because of her wealth. I suppose he would have the Church sell off the treasures she safeguards for all mankind to private collectors. Very little of the Church's resources are in liquid cash. Her treasure is in art, manuscripts, churches, and schools.  Stories to the contrary are not based on the facts that are part of the public record. Many of our priests and ministers suffer under difficult conditions and along with their people know crushing poverty. I have seen this firsthand. It is hard not to get angry about Nicholas' arrogance. A priest friend of mine lives in a mud hut, the sole minister and medic for tens of thousands of people. I have also lost friends to disease and violence in the service of the Gospel. Nicholas spits upon their sacrifice. I can still recall a friend of mine waiting and praying for 
seminarians on their way to join him in an African mission. When they failed to show, a search was made. He had to identify the corpses of these young men who had been hacked to death and left exposed in the jungle for two weeks. The true treasure of the Church is her poor and the sacrifice of her ministers. Mixing their blood with that of Christ, they have made the Church rich indeed; but not rich in a way that Nicholas could understand.  

As for the business about the Pope being treated as a "god", it is absolutely bonkers.  He is the "Servant of the Servants of God", literally a slave of the Church.  His personal lifestyle is actually quite humble.  You wrong a very good man and a humble servant of God.  

Nicholas writes:  

Before we begin, let us emphasize the fact that not all Catholics are involved or know about some of this information.  Most Catholics are simply moral people, having no idea that there is a dark side of the Church, involved in Satanic conspiracies. We are in no way condemning Catholics, but simply reporting what the organization has done, and how it fits into Bible Prophecy.  

Andrew responds:  

Actually, the dark side of which Catholics have little notion is not of the Church but the inside of your heart and mind.  It is there were you invent these mad conspiracies that only exist as part of your imagination and possibly as the foul fruit of a dark spirit.  The Catholic Church proclaims the Gospel of Life and stands as a sign of contradiction in a secular world of materialism, hedonism, and violence.  The message you proclaim is one of hatred masquerading as truth.  Speak plainly, you are in every sense condemning faithful Catholics and their ministers as lost.  The only Catholic you will embrace, as brother, is the one who imitates your example and turns Judas.  

Nicholas writes:  

Most current practices of the Roman Catholic faith were not in any founded in the Bible. True, there are some Biblical elements practiced in the church, but many of them contain added pagan elements as well. Practices such as confession, Catholic ritual baptism, and even "Christian" holidays such as Christmas and Easter have pagan roots (see our Biblical Answers" section for more details), not to mention the practice of the "day of the dead" in Roman Catholic Spain and Spanish Latin America. In fact, when you get into it, Catholicism isn’t that much different from Satanism!  

Andrew responds:  

The first People of God had feasts and holy days; so does the new People of God, the Catholic Church.  The first Israel had ritual washings and circumcision, as well as the confession of sin and repentance; so does the New Israel, the Catholic Church.  The Jews remembered their dead and prayed for them; so do the followers of the Jewish Messiah.  I have already cited Scriptures supporting Catholic sacraments; however, you deleted them from your site.  You are afraid of the truth.  You run away from it and call it blasphemy.  You are like Caiaphas tearing his cloak and sending Jesus to his death for uttering a truth that challenges your prejudice and ignorance.  

Catholicism is not much different from Satanism?  What a statement!  Jesus is surely alive in the Catholic Church and his persecution continues at your hands.  

[Luke 11:18.19] And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul.  

Well, there you have it.  Nicholas, inadvertently, helps to prove Catholicism right:  

[Luke 6:22.17] "Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, on account of the Son of man!  

Nicholas writes:  

To get a clear understanding of how all of this came about, we need a history lesson. The Catholic Church was not founded by Jesus Christ, contrary to popular belief. In fact, Gentiles were not even included in the First Century Church until Peter’s vision, fifteen years after Yeshua ascended into heaven!  

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.  

Andrew responds:  

Ah, sorry, wake up call-- the Catholic Church was made up of Jews in Palestine and quickly embraced Gentiles as the saving message spread.  There is no contradiction to Catholic claims here.  The Cardinal Archbishop of Paris who is a Jewish convert could give you a lesson on this point.  

Nicholas writes:  

Also contrary to popular belief, most of the First Century Church was Jewish. As time progressed, more and more Gentiles entered the fold, and by the time the third and fourth generations asserted themselves, there was a major split from Biblical practices of eating, Biblical holidays, and the Sabbath initiated in Nicea in the Third Century. Following Constantine’s decree that "Christianity" be made the official religion of the Roman Empire, a new modified version of paganism emerged. A version of paganism including new names from the Bible. There is not much difference between the relationship the Catholic Jesus, the disciples, and the saints have, to the relationship of the Roman Jupiter to the lesser gods and goddesses. And somehow, Mary gets thrown in there as the "queen of heaven, mother of God," which in Jeremiah was condemned by God and punishable by death.  

Jeremiah 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.  

Andrew responds:  

Popular belief is precisely that the first Christians were Jewish.  The big debate, settled at the Council of Jerusalem (in Acts) was whether or not Gentiles would have to become Jewish before becoming Christians.  Constantine ended the persecution and murder of Christians?  Was this really such a bad development?  The Church was made legitimate by the state.  This freedom allowed the Church to come out from hiding, to establish facilities, and to set formulations for prayer, worship, sacraments, and the liturgical calendar.  
Your assertion that the Church equating Jesus, Mary, and the saints to the former pagan deities and their relationships is historically untenable.  The Catholic Christians had been martyred precisely because they would not accept emperor worship and the pagan mythology.  We even have the writings of pagan authorities who lamented the spread of Christianity and the neglect of the old gods, claiming that this new religion would bring decadence.  They would not have made such claims if Catholic Christianity merely represented the old gods under new names.  Again, Nicholas you always amaze me at how you can so thoroughly misread the facts and distort the Scriptures.  

Ah, excuse me, but is an Old Testament quote suppose to prove your post-apostolic claims?  Did you take no logic in school?  Did you go to school?  

Nicholas writes:  

Until the Reformation, most people only knew about God from what they heard at the local parish. In fact, most people couldn’t even read. A gospel of tithing and confession was preached by the church. (Note that this is not all of the clergy.) The church was the only organization which had copies of the Bible, or really had a printed copy of the truth. Isn’t that manipulation of information, or 
witchcraft as the Bible calls it? People did not have a copy of the truth for themselves.  

Andrew responds:  

Poor man, just because you live in an age of computers and cheap pulp bibles does not mean that this has always been the case. Until the invention of the printing press, mass publication of the bible was impossible.  The Church guarded learning and help to establish schools; however, she had to do so with a civil society that often wanted to keep people in certain classes or groupings.  In her proclamation and art she tried to reach out to all with the biblical testimony and the Good News of Christ.  You call this witchcraft.  
What is wrong with you?  

Nicholas writes:  

If you didn’t already know, the two keys on the Vatican flag represent the keys of heaven and of death, which Catholic theology claims belong to the pope. These things are clearly owned by Jesus as mentioned in Revelation, a book in the Bible Catholics were forbidden to read until this century.  

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.  

Andrew responds:  

How do I respond to such utter nonsense?  I have Catholic bibles passed down from the last century that include the Book of Revelation.  And, as for the papal flag, remember Christ's words to Peter?  

[Mat 16:19.6] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."  

These words still have meaning for as long as the Church and the See of Peter exists.  

Nicholas writes:  

It was only until the Reformation that people began to read and understand the Bible for themselves. Back in the1500’s, Martin Luther’s belief that the "just shall live by faith" was quite revolutionary. However, even with the split and breakup of the church, Protestant denominations still follow many of the customs and traditions founded in Roman Catholicism, which are not mentioned in the Bible.  

Andrew responds:  

Actually, people had long read the bible and with the guidance of the Church, with genuine understanding.  The use of the printing press and growing literacy would improve matters.  However, the Reformation had its roots in the abuse of a few and in nationalistic tension and/or rivalry.  Luther's faith included a truncated Old Testament and a censored New Testament, with various books like that of James deleted.  The Reformation used the bible for its own purposes; but ultimately it was a cult of personality (Luther) and the greed of princes that made the division in the Church a painful reality.  The mainline traditions that resulted still maintained various elements of Catholic belief and discipline-- about this you are correct.  At least in an unofficial way, this is a bow of the head to Catholic authority and teaching.  Nicholas would sever himself completely from confessional (creed) churches and wipe out two 
thousand years of theological reflection and dogmatic development.  However, since Nicholas did not exist at the time of the bible's composition and collation, any synthesis he produces must be regarded as utterly personal and suspect.  The Church, on the other hand, was preaching the Good News before the New Testament was completed.  The Catholic Church is the Mother of the bible and is the proper reference for its interpretation and usage.  

Nicholas writes:  

The Roman Catholic Church is viewed very differently today. Many view it as a charitable organization, always looking after the best interests of the world. Perhaps there are indeed some Catholics whose primary job is to do exactly that, but the church has been involved in some very evil deeds as well, especially involving the Jewish people.  

Andrew responds:  

Perhaps?  The truth of Christ is the mind of the Church.  The love of Christ is her heart.  Catholic Charities is the second largest charity organization in the world, just behind the United States government.  Your mention of the Jewish people, considering what you have previously said about them, is quite hypocritical.  

Nicholas writes:  

For centuries in Europe, Jews have been persecuted, and in many cases at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.  

Andrew responds:  

Many nations, Catholic and Protestant, treated the Jews in a shoddy fashion.  There are cases where various Popes intervened on their behalf.  Golda Meier planted a tree in Israel and said that during the darkest days of the world war, Pope Pius XII was their one hope and friend.  Many lies have been told about him since.  The chief rabbi of Rome became a Roman Catholic after the war and took the Christian name of the Holy Father.  Crucifixes, rosaries, even chalices and patens, were added to the tribute of gold demanded of the 
Roman Jews by the Nazis.  Along with allied soldiers, Jews were even hidden in the homes of Catholic believers.  When one Catholic bishop spoke out about what the Germans were doing, all the Jews in his city were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers.  The Church had a delicate situation.  She had to do something-- and she did.  But, to speak and to act too overtly might make matters far worse.  The present Holy Father has reminded us that God has not abandoned his first chosen people and that God established an 
endless covenant with them.  I suspect that Nicholas would argue for their damnation unless they accept his twisted version of Christianity.  

Nicholas writes:  

In fact, Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini were given the title "defender of the faith" by the Church. Current pope John Paul II, when only a Polish priest, under the guise of the Vatican, secretly sold cyanide to the Nazis during World War II. The Roman Catholic involvement in the Holocaust is just the beginning, think about the Spanish Inquisition. Jews who did not convert to Catholicism were tortured and killed. Does it make you think a moment about the Vatican’s part in the Middle East peace process? It has come out that Jerusalem 
will be put under the administration of the Vatican by the year 2000 as a "third party" negociator. The Catholics want the city to usher in their "year of jubilee" in 2000. Could we expect something b ig to happen? The Vatican has mentioned many occasions that it wants in center of operations moved back to Jerusalem. After all, it was discovered that Peter’s tomb is not in Rome but in Jerusalem.   

Andrew responds:  

Is Nicholas sane?  The Church has NEVER given the official title, "Defender of the Faith", to any fascist.  Hitler was not even a practicing Catholic! Mussolini had left the Church.  There are lies and then there are damned lies-- here is where we encounter the latter variety.  Where do you get this information?  Assuredly, it is made up.  

Only two men have ever been called DEFENDER OF THE FAITH.  The first was King Henry VIII for his work, THE DEFENSE OF THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS.  Of course, he later made himself the supreme head of the Church in England and tortured and killed some wonderful Catholics in the process.  The title was rescinded.  Protestantism started in this country because of a man's desire for a male heir and his philandering with women-- many of whom would lose their lives.  

The second man given this nametag was G. K. Chesterton, a wonderful convert to Catholicism.  He and his wife were both very pious. Not wanting to make the same mistake with this second Englishman, the Church waited until he was dead before honoring him.  His cause for beatification is currently being promoted.  

Archeological evidence shows fairly conclusively that Peter's tomb is in Rome and it was uncovered a few years ago.  As for a Jubilee celebration in Jerusalem, it is not to extend papal power but to honor the Lord Jesus in the land where the history of salvation began. Agreements with the Israeli and Palestinian governments make the true situation quite clear.  Nicholas is becoming detached from reality.  

Nicholas writes:  
  
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.  

Andrew responds:  

Yours, Nicholas, is assuredly a strong DELUSION.  Since the facts reveal your deceit, the LIE that brings spiritual death is yours.  

Nicholas writes:  

If we are truly living in the last days, than there should be incredible deception taking hold in the hearts of many people, especially "Christian" people. Scripture prophecies that there will be a great falling away from the faith, or perhaps simply a mass acceptance of deception. Right now, the Jerusalem Council II movement involves Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestants, and even Messianic Jews, all aimed at reconciling the differences and coming together in a "spirit of brotherhood." From that statement you could easily 
conclude that what they’re doing is of the Lord. However, what does the Bible say about reconciliation? These people should be repenting of their sins before God, not just apologizing to one another. It appears that a great religious merge is about to unfold in the coming years, between those of all monotheistic faiths, and the Roman Catholic Church is at the center of it. Perhaps the false prophet of Revelation will emerge from the Catholic Church. We’ll have to wait and find out…  

Andrew responds:  

Our Lord tells us that he who is not against us is with us.  Nicholas is far more optimistic that the Catholic Church about ecumenical endeavors.  While we hope for reunion with Orthodox believers and certain mainline churches; the most for which we can hope from other denominations and non-Christians is a spirit of fraternity and mutual cooperation in bringing peace and charity to a world of violence and desperate poverty.  

Repent and believe are still hallmarks of the Catholic proclamation.  The Holy Father and bishops have urged repentance on ever level, institutional and personal.  You do an injustice to all Catholics by distorting the facts of the matter.  Your hatred will not allow you to see straight.  Are you still trying to justify your defection to yourself?  

Nicholas writes:  

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  

Andrew responds:  

Nicholas the Church is not the beast and the Pope is not the anti-Christ.  Posts that you deleted made this quite plain.  

Nicholas writes:  

If you are Catholic, or involved with the Church, we would ask you to seriously reconsider where your loyalty lies.  Does it lie with an organization, a pope who claims to be "christ on earth," or does it lie solely with Jesus Christ? As the end comes and as we see the merging of major religious organizations come together all in the name of ‘brotherhood’ as fundamental doctrines are cast aside in the name of "tolerance" will you go along or leave the system? The choice is up to you. You can be on the side of Christ, or the side of antichrist. Antichrist does not necessarily mean opposed to Christ, but can also mean a mimic of Him.  

Andrew responds:  

There is no "we" where you are concerned.  YOU are asking people to abandon Christ's Church for the sinking raft of Nicholas.  No thank you.  Our faith and trust is in the REAL Jesus Christ who feeds us with his living Word and his bread of life.  The Pope does not claim to be "Christ on earth".  Rather, he is the visible head of the Church who receives his authority from the invisible head, Jesus Christ.  Fundamental doctrines are not cast aside in the ecumenical endeavor.  We admit our differences but reach out to each other 
in constructive dialogue and with expressions of authentic love.  And, by the way, the word "Antichrist" means precisely ANTI or AGAINST Christ.  There are certainly enough signs of this negative presence in the world without having to make the Church a scapegoat for evil.  

You are a sick and delusional man.  You trust no one and are preoccupied with conspiracy theories.  You preach a gospel of hate.  

May you come to your senses and may God forgive you.