|
|||||||
|
|
|
|||||
|
|
|||||||
|
|
Baal is the God of the Vatican The following is a debate between Nicholas and Andrew on the issue of the TRUE deity of the Catholic Church. Nicholas assaults the Eucharist, but with little effect.
Andrew responds:
[Mimicking Nicholas' post on another subject where he insinuated something perverse by Andrew's delayed response] Sound familiar? your words, not mine, except for the number of days being 36 . . . [Speaking of the delay] Sorry, I could not see how your Scripture quotes offered any challenge at all-- but since you insist . . . . . . by the way, all the Mass orations are addressed to God the Father . . . sometimes you are so simplistic. Nicholas writes: Some might believe I waited for a reason Andrew . . . You have now had 36 days to pray for me Andrew. Am I a Catholic yet? NOPE!! Need I mention how Elijah proved this point to the prophets of Baal? BTW. . . Baal IS the god of the Vatican. All the Pagan rituals speak MUCH louder than any number of words to cover it up. Andrew responds: I have prayed for you, Nicholas. And, despite your protestation, it has not been to Baal, but to the TRUE God of the Catholic Church and all TRUE Christians. Baal is NOT the God of the Vatican. The God of the Catholic Church has revealed himself as the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the God of Jesus Christ, not of the ancient pagans who offered sacrifices to idols. Baal, as you must know from your bible studies, was the Canaanite deity of storm and fertility. Christians understand the mythical figure to be demonic, the New testament derivation of the name is Beelzebul. Just as your criticize the testimony of faithful Catholics, so too was Jesus mocked when his exorcistic healing was attributed to evil powers. Nicholas writes: By the way, all the Mass orations are addressed to God the Father . . . Including the CREATION of an idol god as well Andrew. The priest openly states that the communion wafer is the "Work of human hands" does he not? And God Almighty openly declares . . . [cites Scriptures] Andrew responds: If what our Lord says is true about the consecrated bread and wine being his body and blood, then it could hardly be "an idol god". In any case, many Christians of differing denominations can disagree about the Eucharist without it becoming a slug-fest. You know how important it is to Catholics and yet you offer mockery. If the celebration of the Lord's Supper is truly the work of Christ made possible by the Holy Spirit, then yours is the blasphemy. As for the quoted words, it is part of an adaptation from Jewish table-blessings (with biblical parallels); let us look at the full citation: BLESSED ARE
YOU, LORD, GOD OF ALL CREATION.
BLESSED ARE
YOU, LORD, GOD OF ALL CREATION.
Note that your Scripture citations refer to the Temple or to pagan shrines as the work of human hands. Here the emphasis is not on a physical building but on the elements of bread and wine. At this point in the Mass, the offertory or preparation of the gifts, the words of consecration have not yet been pronounced. There is no wafer-god as you term it upon the altar. It is simply bread and wine. God gave us the wheat and the grapes. HUMAN HANDS made them into bread and wine. We look forward to them becoming something more, the sacred signs of our redemption used by Christ at the paschal supper with his friends. The lamb of sacrifice that made possible the passing of the angel of death during the time of Egyptian exile, is itself being replaced by THE LAMB OF GOD who would offer himself as a sacrifice, saying: This is my blood. This is the cup of the new and everlasting covenant. Do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me. What are some biblical connections? Here are a few: >The eucharistic gifts are brought to the altar. These include the bread and wine and the offering collected from the people. (Malachi 3:10) >Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. (Eccl. 3:13) >It will become for us the bread of life. (John 6:35) >People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36) >Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink. (Luke 22:17-18) >People: Blessed be God forever. (Ps 68:36) >Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father. (Heb. 12:28) >People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our sake and the good of all his Church. (Ps 50:23) Nicholas writes: Acts 7:48, "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet," Andrew responds: Stephen is not talking about the place of the Eucharist in the Church. Indeed, the practice of reservation would not be universal until there were places reserved for worship. However, there were cases where the Eucharist was taken to those who were sick or in prison, unable to participate in the Christian love-feast. Stephen is talking about the utter transcendence of God. Unlike the false pagan deities, he cannot be locked into any single location or completely epitomized in an idol of human construction. Stephen is trying desperately to correct the Jewish confusion about the Temple of Jerusalem being the unique place where God is to be worshipped. The Christian worship can be rendered anywhere, in a house or in a field, in the Holy Land, or across the globe. Such is the nature of the Eucharist. We believe that just as Jesus prophesied to the Samaritan woman, true worship is not limited to Jerusalem but emerges from Christians offering sincere prayer with the ministers he has called. There is nothing here that challenges Catholic teaching. Nicolas writes: Acts 17:24, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" Andrew responds: Paul is appealing to the Athenians to abandon their false idols, while connecting the true deity with the altar inscribed "To an Unknown God". Like Stephen, he is telling them about the God of his Jewish inheritance, and further revealed in Christ, who "gives to everyone life and breath and everything." Again, there is no correlation between this and the Christian churches of Catholicism that would grow from the home-churches and the catacombs. Stephen argued against a center of gravity upon the Temple of Jerusalem; Paul makes the same claim against the shrines in the location of the Areopagus. Further, he is saying that the origin and existence of the universe is the work of ONLY ONE GOD. There is nothing here that challenges Catholic teaching. Nicolas writes: Hebrews 9:24, "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:" Andrew responds: This verse is part of a larger text that explains the universal and unique character of Christ's sacrifice. The worship of the first covenant is seen as a figure or type for that which is true and redemptive in Christ Jesus. We are saved not by the blood of animals, but by the sacrifice of Christ. His sacrifice is a single oblation of himself, unrepeatable in that Jesus can never die again. True worship, as we have seen in the previous texts, is not reserved to an annual commemoration or to Jerusalem, what Jesus has done has lasting and permanent significance. This does not conflict with the Catholic Eucharist. The re-presentation of Christ's one-time sacrifice does not kill him again and again but rather makes US present to the singular act of redemption by Christ on the cross. True worship did not end with the historical event of Calvary, but continues in an unbloody way through the mystery of the Lord's Supper instituted with the apostles as ministers of the new dispensation. Nicholas writes: I agree Andrew that all the "orations" of the mass are directed to the father. Problem is it's the father of lies that embraces this blasphemous trec. Andrew responds: You are very wrong. While our view regarding the nature of the Church and various doctrines may differ, if your faith in Jesus is genuine then the God we follow is one and the same. The fact that you believe Catholics LOYAL to the Church are devil worshippers is an impenetrable barrier to any fruitful dialogue. By the way, what is a "trec"? Nicholas writes: "Sometimes you are so simplistic." [Quoting Andrew] Actually Andrew, it's because you make it toooo easy to prove Catholicism is evil. Andrew responds: I don't think so, Nicholas. Your proofs just do not hold up under serious scrutiny. Nicholas writes: ANDREW SAYS: "I don't think so, Nicholas. Your proofs just do not hold up under serious scrutiny." WHICH EARTH
HAS GIVEN AND HUMAN HANDS HAVE MADE.
CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS: "Elevation of the host:"
GOD ALMIGHTY SAYS: Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands: 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Andrew responds: I will only offer a brief response as you have missed the whole point. The Scriptures you quote do not hurt the Catholic position. The citation taken from the apostle Thomas was formerly suggested as a personal prayer response to the consecration elevation, not to the offertory prayers you mentioned-- wrong part of the Mass. (Were you really a Catholic?)
|